APMEX Silver Maple Leaf sale

[John Edward Mercier]

"Fiat currency" in that more can be made at the whim of those that control it, versus a commodity which requires actual work to produce, etc.

I'm hearing talk on NPR of a *second* "stimulus bill" - and the US can barely service its existing debt as-is! In other words, the US government needs to stop spending since it has essentially no currency left. If it does not stop spending, that means those in power will have decided to print money, and at the rate they're going, that pretty much guarantees hyperinflation.

"Spending" includes doing absolutely stupid things such as officially placing Fannie/Freddie "assets" on the Treasury books, along with Bear Sterns and maybe Lehman (or the next "too big to fail" failure).

I think your mistaking paper notes which are non-interest bearing debt obligations redeemable in coin... to coin which is fiat in that its face value is greater than its material innate value.
I know the fast public sees the bills as 'money' rather than debt obligations, but only coin is money.

[Mike Barskey]

I think your mistaking paper notes which are non-interest bearing debt obligations redeemable in coin... to coin which is fiat in that its face value is greater than its material innate value.
I know the fast public sees the bills as 'money' rather than debt obligations, but only coin is money.

By "coin," then, you mean the legal definition (hence the fiat). But precious metal (generic rounds or bars; or even government coins that are traded for the metal content, not the government-declared value) isn't fiat, is it? Or do I misunderstand you or some terminology?

[penguins4me]

I think your mistaking paper notes which are non-interest bearing debt obligations redeemable in coin... to coin which is fiat in that its face value is greater than its material innate value.
I know the fast public sees the bills as 'money' rather than debt obligations, but only coin is money.

Yep, the terms I'd used weren't the ones I'd meant to use.

[John Edward Mercier]

I think your mistaking paper notes which are non-interest bearing debt obligations redeemable in coin... to coin which is fiat in that its face value is greater than its material innate value.
I know the fast public sees the bills as 'money' rather than debt obligations, but only coin is money.

By "coin," then, you mean the legal definition (hence the fiat). But precious metal (generic rounds or bars; or even government coins that are traded for the metal content, not the government-declared value) isn't fiat, is it? Or do I misunderstand you or some terminology?

If your trading for the innate material value, its not fiat.
The US Constitution empowered the Congress to coin money and set its value... which (along with other clauses) embodies the 'system'.
Originally the US government tried to make non-fiat coins (face value was to closely match the content)... but fell under Gresham's Law, where the innate material value quickly outpaced the face value.
LD faced this same problem when its $10USD coins of one troy ounce silver quickly became worth more than $10USD.

[margomaps]

LD faced this same problem when its $10USD coins of one troy ounce silver quickly became worth more than $10USD.

So eventually LD changed its 1 oz silver coins to a suggested value of $20.  Interestingly enough, silver is now back down around $10/oz.  I wonder, if LD were still in business, would it re-issue a new $10/oz coin should the price of silver happen to drop well below $10/oz again.

[Pat McCotter]

LD faced this same problem when its $10USD coins of one troy ounce silver quickly became worth more than $10USD.

So eventually LD changed its 1 oz silver coins to a suggested value of $20.  Interestingly enough, silver is now back down around $10/oz.  I wonder, if LD were still in business, would it re-issue a new $10/oz coin should the price of silver happen to drop well below $10/oz again.

LD is still in business and their base is now $50! As a matter of fact, it moved to $50 on March 23, 2008!

[Pat McCotter]

Hugo Salinas Price advocates the same thing (increase the Central Bank's "quoted value") for Mexico's Silver Libertad but without the face value peso denomination. Take a look at this video made at the GATA Gold Conference April 17-19, 2008.

Part 1/3
Part 2/3
Part 3/3

NOTE: You can click the "<<Video anterior" link at the bottom of the first two video pages to get to the next video instead of coming back here.

PS: For Hugo Salinas Price's essays you can read them in English at Gold-Eagle.com.
Some later English ones are available at Moneda de Plata Para México - Silver Money for Mexico.
And even later - more current - ones in Spanish.

You can use Google or Yahoo! Babelfish to translate the pages.

[margomaps]

LD is still in business and their base is now $50! As a matter of fact, it moved to $50 on March 23, 2008!

$50 for a troy ounce of silver?  Why would I buy 4 generic silver rounds when I could get one of those?      

[Pat McCotter]

LD is still in business and their base is now $50! As a matter of fact, it moved to $50 on March 23, 2008!

Actually, just looked at the site closer and it does not appear that they are actively selling or redeeming LD's.

[Ron Helwig]

LD faced this same problem when its $10USD coins of one troy ounce silver quickly became worth more than $10USD.

So eventually LD changed its 1 oz silver coins to a suggested value of $20.  Interestingly enough, silver is now back down around $10/oz.  I wonder, if LD were still in business, would it re-issue a new $10/oz coin should the price of silver happen to drop well below $10/oz again.

A newsletter came out a few days ago from them saying the FRN based price drop is likely to trigger a "move-down". The formula has a longer waiting period for move-downs than move-ups; based on the belief that inflation of FRNs is more likely than deflation. So yes, at this point it looks like they will be re-issuing $20/oz tokens (can't call them "coins" because the government thinks they own words).

[John Edward Mercier]

The government doesn't care if they're called 'coins'.
It was other statements made that created the suspicion of fraud.

Several private exchange mediums are currently in use within the US borders.
But they limit their public statements as it concerns the US Constitution.

The Silver Shire can make coins... and even coin money.
As the US Constitution only restricts this from the States, not individual enterprise.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

the US Constitution only restricts this from the States, not individual enterprise.

Irrelevant. What the Constitution says hasn't mattered to the government people since June 22, 1778. They'll point guns at you and steal your shit if you do something they don't like. Actions speak much louder than words on paper.

[John Edward Mercier]

Huh?

Several systems already exist within this context...

[Ron Helwig]

Huh?

Several systems already exist within this context...

They exist, but aren't anywhere near a threat to those in power. The Liberty Dollar was just barely becoming a threat when they stomped on it.

[John Edward Mercier]

How would they be a threat? Since the LD used FRNs as an exchange medium.

Shire-hours or the AJ certificates would be a much larger threat. Since both could avoid the use of FRN and US coin, and have serious financial circumnavigation on the 'skimming' done by the IRS barter regulations.