Doobie Harassed for open carrying "two pistols"

[doobie]

[removed]

Basic jist: I got harassed for legally OCing in Concord.

[Porcupine_in_MA]

The big gang REALLY hates that they can't do anything about your open-carrying.

[doobie]

The big gang REALLY hates that they can't do anything about your open-carrying.

Definitely.  However, as I was walking away and dealing with my sweater, he said, "Make sure you do no cover the pistol."

[rmodel65]

file a complaint and file a suit for violating your 4th amendment rights

[doobie]

file a complaint and file a suit for violating your 4th amendment rights

It is a thought because I told the officer I didn't want him to open my wallet and that I could open it and give it to him.

[doobie]

[MTPorcupine3]

I called in a Porc 411.  I was just finishing up when they stopped and got out and said, "Turn around and hang up the phone."  I complied 

Very interesting. I wonder what law obliges you to comply with such a command, and I wonder what would have happened had you not complied, particularly with the phone part.

They asked for license.

They can ask for anything they want. But are you required to comply? Am I correct to assume they meant Driver's License? I thought you were walking. There's no law that I know of that requires you to provide a driver's license or any ID for that matter. The way I understand it you are required to state your name and date of birth if there's a reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime or are about to commit a crime. You can have a lot of fun with this one.

I said it was in my car.  They asked where my car was.  I told them downtown concord.  They asked what I was doing.  I told them I went to Ace looking for a snow thrower.  They asked if I was going to carry it back.  I told them Iwent to HD and Lowes and they didn't have anything I wanted and I was heading home and rememebered there was an Ace and since it was a nice day I walked there. 

This is a textbook case of a cop playing a gotcha game and a detainee taking the bait. Also known as a "fishing expedition" or "Terry search". There is no reason to hit the tar baby. Watch my interview with Mark Lyon http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6059681979244349783, in particular how to talk to the police by asking questions rather than hitting the tar baby. Also, google/video busted flex your rights to see an entertaining how-to on surviving police encounters.

Two days ago here in Raleigh I saw a young homeless (allegedly, anyway) guy panhandling on a street corner. I came back the same way a few minutes later to see the same guy in handcuffs being questioned by a cop. I'm convinced he was on his way to jail. Why? Because his lips were moving.

Good thing they didn't know about the Kel-tec I had in my other pocket!

For the dummies among us, what is (a) Kel-tec? If they had discovered it, whatever it is, it illustrates why it is best not to consent to any search, seizure, interrogation or detention. Every time you open your mouth you exponentially increase your chances of putting your foot in it.

If you're not sure what to say, there's always: Silence, or "Am I free to go?"

Well, the important thing is you weren't arrested, beaten up, tased or shot. It may be difficult to file charges or suit against these cops because you effectively consented to their interrogation. I'll be interested to see how things pan out.

[Firewall99]

I took Tony Lekas's NRA Self Protection gun class, at which attorney Evan Nappen gave a thorough briefing on the law as it pertains to self-protection and other issues.  One of the other issues covered common misconceptions of concealed-carry licenses.

Did you know that there NO LAW that requires you to have your concealed carry license on your person?  All that is required is for you to have the license issued.  If the police want to check it, they can call the chief of police of the issuing town.  The problem arises because many officers confuse RSA 159:4 with the Fish & Game regulations that absolutely require you to have your hunting license on your person while hunting.

I'm not even sure that a concealed carry license becomes "invalid" if you move.  There is nothing in RSA 159:4 on that.  My guess is that the police are again confusing RSA 159:4 with other regulations--ones issued by the NH dmv regarding your driver license and registration.

The other issue in your stop, the primary issue in my mind, is that, absent a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed, you are free to go and not to answer questions.  If the officer manages to develop a reasonable suspicion, he may detain you for further questioning.  So the first response I would give would be to ask, "Do you have reason to believe that a crime has been committed?  If so, would you articulate that, please?  Be advised, a hunch will not do.  Otherwise, I am free to leave."  Then steer the conversation as to what crime was committed, whether it is reasonable to believe that, etc.  Get him off his talking points and on to yours.  For instance, misapprehension of the laws regarding open carry or concealed carry cannot be reasonable.  Challenge him.  Make him call it in or let you leave.

The Concord police and town council are about to learn what the Manchester town council and mayor have already learned, that you cannot abuse citizens' gun rights without impunity.  Manchester is currently getting sued for this very type of stop.  You might ask the officer, "Can the town's legal budget afford another lawsuit?"  Any cop who causes a town to fight a lawsuit is going to find his job at risk when his contract is up, and they know that.

It doesn't even matter whether you are right in what ever assertion you make.  Just stick to your talking points and insist on him charging you with a crime or letting you go.  Do it early, before he can assemble enough evidence to make a decision.  Your job is to sow confusion and doubt, which, given the intelligence of the average cop vs. the intelligence of the average member of the Liberty Movement, should not be too difficult. 

I once used this tactic of getting the discussion onto my talking points to dissuade a VT officer from ticketing me for not having insurance.  I told him, "The full faith and credit clause of the Constitution requires each state to honor the laws of other states to facilitate interstate commerce, especially where no actual harm can be demonstrated.  The VT law requiring drivers to have insurance can only kick in where there is an accident or other damage actually incurred."  The officer called it in, and his sargent admitted that the "law was unsettled."  So he had to let me go.  It works.

[rmodel65]

read the complaint here give you an idea cites some case law etc http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/richmond_carry/
and heres the Order : http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/richmond_carry/Doc%2011%20Consent%20Order.pdf
i know its from GA but the federal stuff can be looked at by any court and the jl v FL is the law of the land
they seized a lot more than your wallet, they also seized you without any Reasonable suspicion or probable cause. did they take possession of your gun? if so that too was seized.

[Dave Ridley]

initial video including the 411 calls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGTHHKpaCBM

[doobie]

read the complaint here give you an idea cites some case law etc http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/richmond_carry/
and heres the Order : http://www.georgiacarry.com/county/richmond_carry/Doc%2011%20Consent%20Order.pdf
i know its from GA but the federal stuff can be looked at by any court and the jl v FL is the law of the land
they seized a lot more than your wallet, they also seized you without any Reasonable suspicion or probable cause. did they take possession of your gun? if so that too was seized.

They took my wallet which I don't know if I really gave permission for, but he refused to let me grab it for him.

I know I told him I didn't want him opening my wallet and if he gave it to me I'd get my license.

Also, since the call was about "a man with two pistols" and my sweater was covering up my flashlight (which was the second pistol), he took my sweater off and kept it in his possession.  I don't think I said anything about the sweater.  The wallet was the only thing I know I said I didn't want him opening it and I would open it for him and get the license.

[Firewall99]

This is a great video to see how to avoid what happened to Doobie.  The post includes the direct link to the video.

Doobie is lucky he is in NH.  In many states, he'd be in jail, if only for over night.  He made some mistakes, but wouldn't we, if we didn't have a plan?  Watch the video and develop a plan, so it doesn't happen to you.

Thanks to MTPorcupine3 for bringing this great video to our attention.

[Lloyd Danforth]

These open carry abuses will continue until someone files a lawsuit against the cops and the cities where they happen.

[doobie]

These open carry abuses will continue until someone files a lawsuit against the cops and the cities where they happen.

It is an idea, but I think my best basis would be for ground on 4th amendment violations.  I don't know if consent is implicitly implied when one is stopped, but I never consented for him to remove my sweater so he could see my "other pistol" (flashlight).  He only cared about that because it was concealed.  My openly carried pistol he didn't care about.

However he refused to let me get my wallet and got it for himself.  And then after I told him I didn't want him opening my wallet he said he wasn't going to give it to me.  I should have stated then he can put it back in my pocket, but I think I kept quiet (something about 3 cops standing around you in a threatening manor).  Luckily it was the top thing and all he was about to see was my library card, but still.  I felt my 4th amendment rights were violated. 

I don't think I'll file a lawsuit though.  I don't think it would be strong enough, but I am likely filing a complaint.

[Lloyd Danforth]

If they didn't have any reason to stop you, sue them.  They claimed they got a complaint about a guy with two guns?  Gt a lawyer to make them produce the complaint!