NH: Pledge refuser says school used force to make her stand

[D Stewart]

but also, beforehand, a pledge to their state and its constitution.

requiring a pledge of allegiance is nothing but indoctrination

I agree with you.  When schools require it or teach/do it by rote, it is ridiculous.  My suggestion about the state pledge was intended to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek, so as to emphasise the absurdity of such routine pledges which mention the US but neglect our own state.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I pledge allegiance to the Porcupine and, to the Free State Project for which it stands.......

[Free libertarian]

 When I was in Jr. High (1971,2 ish) it was still common for teachers to "correct" students physically.  I being a generally good student never got that treatment except for once when I refused to pledge allegiance.
I wish I could say it was the beginning of my Libertarian thought but I really can't remember what my motivation was.  I got a history book smashed on top of my head by my home room teacher...that guy was such a douchebag...I believe I let him know that too. 

[Lloyd Danforth]

When the Pledge is offered up, I just stand.  I realize that the folks around me are not raging statists, just suffering under an illusion.
Now that  Eli has the attention of her fellow students, she could consider a study group to look at what despots have actually, done standing behind the flag.

[Russell Kanning]

would it be right to stand while others pledged their allegiance to say .... the UN, the Obama, The European Union, or a Nazi leader?

[Dave Ridley]

Donald I welcome you here but morally speaking you are out of your mind.

[dalebert]

It's certainly ineffective for persuading others.

You say that even after pretty significant proof to the contrary. People started to remain seated in her defense until at one point her entire class remained seated.

It takes a lot of courage, and I'll admit that I'm not even there yet myself. However, I contend that being 100% truthful and consistent in what you believe and being brave enough to speak it is quite possibly the most persuasive a person can be. Instead what we have is watered down truths that are actually full of inconsistencies. When someone challenges something you said and it's not what you truly believe, then you have to stack lies on top of your original watered down statements and it becomes more and more meaningless. We're ruled by centuries old mythologies and silly cultural taboos because we're too timid to challenge them and evolve to new and better things.

[dalebert]

Sometimes disrespect is just an honest statement of your beliefs. Not standing is quite mild. Seriously.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebffiIF_FyU

[D Stewart]

Sometimes disrespect is just an honest statement of your beliefs. Not standing is quite mild. Seriously.  (link to youtube video related to Jesse burning a US flag)

And you think I condone that?  Apparently I need to spell out for those who would take issue with my beliefs that I do, firmly and strongly, believe in Jesse's right to burn the flag.  But I think it to have been an inappropriate action and not one which impresses me as to the character of the individual.  Nor, if any violence were to have resulted against his person, would I condone that.  But even so, in that circumstance, it would take a lot to make me feel sorry for him and, depending on the circumstances, I dare say I would likely be more sympathetic toward the individual whom he would have incited and provoked into such a response.

Sorry if that doesn't happen to coincide with your beliefs.  I am not telling you to change your beliefs.  But I do think that Jesse seems to be particularly good at choosing inappropriate fights.  Should he have been ordered to remove his hat on pain of arrest?  Of course not.  Should he have been forcibly arrested?  Of course not.  Was Charlie's behavior and questioning appropriate, from what has been written on this board?  Most assuredly and definitely so.  Was it appropriate for a gentleman to sit down inside a heated structure wearing a hat in the first place?  Of course not.

You may choose to disagree if you will, but understand that my intent was not to convince everyone of my position, rather to give people pause in an attempt to distinguish between that which may be worthwhile and appropriate civil disobedience, and that which is counter-productive, ill-mannered or just plain rude.

Please don't think that I am setting myself off on some shiny pedestal: I can be quite, quite uncivil and ill-mannered sometimes.  Occasionally this is deliberate, but far more often neglectful.  Yet my point stands, that such circumstances ought not to be taken as the shining examples which warrant a video recorded interview for posterity, as if to demonstrate the wonderful values of this freedom movement, which manages to provoke such behavior in its members.

Mr Mercier sensibly observes that "Manners is something you do to earn the respect of others..." and I think there's more than a bit of truth to that, although I think there's also an aspect of easing and normalizing social interactions within a group of folks whom you do not know well enough to behave otherwise.  But in making that point, I think he hits the nail on the head.  Whether it's right or wrong, whether it's a right or a privilege, etc. -- unless we maintain the respect of our audience then we are not effectively communicating our message.

I submit that it would be deranged to think that the average American is going to be persuaded favorably of our positions by circulating videos of someone burning a US flag.  Thank God that we made it onto Glenn Beck the other night because of HCR6 and not because of the flag-burning.

However, I sense that I am in the minority here, at least on this matter, and so I will be happy to conclude my foray into this thread.

[dalebert]

And you think I condone that?

Condone what? I don't know what you're referring to. My point that seemed to be missed was that disrespect is a form of expression. I think some things are not worthy of respect and it's simply honesty when you openly show disrespect. I think it's dishonest to show respect when you don't actually have it.

Here's another example of a symbol that is unworthy of respect and a blatant show of disrespect in this case is a healthy act of free speech against racism and tyranny. I acknowledge that you're recognizing the right to do these things, but I'm taking a step further. I'm saying that not only is it our right, but it's also a good and moral thing to do-- to openly refrain from any acts of respect toward something that you do not have respect for. Respect has to be earned and maintained. If we hand it out too freely, it loses value and meaning. When we cease to be mindless followers and demand better leadership (and I mean leadership by example, not force), we will begin to evolve our societies into something better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GypxbfNiu1U

[KBCraig]

It's certainly ineffective for persuading others.

You say that even after pretty significant proof to the contrary. People started to remain seated in her defense until at one point her entire class remained seated.

As I said, I hadn't yet watched that Ridleo when I made my comment, so I was going only on what he wrote.

Now that I've watched it, I agree: she did have a positive impact on her classmates.

[Pat K]

"That all said, I think it would be a super suggestion to have all the NH schools make time not just for the pledge of allegiance every day but also, beforehand, a pledge to their state and its constitution."

Yeah and then to our glorious leader.

[Moebius Tripp]

Once again, bowing down to the things made by the hands/minds of men, and forcing others to do the same, is idolatry and coercion.

Eli has brass.

[TackleTheWorld]

That young'n shows a real talent for puttin' the world straight, I'd say. 

[J’raxis 270145]

I stand while others recite the pledge.

I bow my head when they say, "Let us pray".

If I find myself in unfamiliar surroundings like a Catholic service, I try to stand, sit, kneel, etc., when others do.

If I enter an observant Jewish home, I will don a yarmulka if offered, or at least attempt to cover my head.

If I enter a home where everyone is expected to doff their shoes, I will go along with their tradition.

I would also do things like this in the settings you describe.

I would not, however, if I had been compelled to be there—as one is in a public school.