NH: Pledge refuser says school used force to make her stand

[Dave Ridley]

New Hampshire student claims victory over government school, but not before it allegedly lays hands on her. Also she is a Free Stater; Free Staters are people who move to NH for more freedom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvS_7GioJgk

You can digg it at:
http://digg.com/politics/Pledge_refuser_says_school_used_force_to_make_her_stand

[neggy]

Good for her. Maybe in a few years she will run for office and bring her enlightened views to the table

There are some religions where it is against doctrine to salute the flag btw what would the school do then?

[MTPorcupine3]

I can't help but wonder: If she's that smart and courageous, what's she doing in a government indoctrination centre in the first place?

[D Stewart]

There are some religions where it is against doctrine to salute the flag btw what would the school do then?

Listen again.  They weren't trying to make her salute or say the words.  They were asking her to stand up.  If she can't at least learn to be well-mannered, her parents should remove her from the school.  Of course, it sounds like they are the problem.  Why do people seek to praise this behavior?

[Pat K]

Well mannered? So it is well mannered to demand someone stand
for something they don't believe in?

[J’raxis 270145]

There are some religions where it is against doctrine to salute the flag btw what would the school do then?

Listen again.  They weren't trying to make her salute or say the words.  They were asking her to stand up.  If she can't at least learn to be well-mannered, her parents should remove her from the school.  Of course, it sounds like they are the problem.

Standing up during a pledge is still a sign of respect, even if it's on a lesser scale than actually saying the pledge. And if she doesn't respect the flag or whatever-it-is that it stands for, obviously she shouldn't be required to show respect.

Why do people seek to praise this behavior?

Because it's someone defying an illegitimate demand.

[David]

There are some religions where it is against doctrine to salute the flag btw what would the school do then?

Listen again.  They weren't trying to make her salute or say the words.  They were asking her to stand up.  If she can't at least learn to be well-mannered, her parents should remove her from the school.  Of course, it sounds like they are the problem.  Why do people seek to praise this behavior?

My apologies, I must have mistakenly assumed children were not property to be ordered about frivolously, I guess I was wrong. 

[Moebius Tripp]

Idolatry is idolatry... worship what you want, but don't use force to make me (or anyone else) bow down to YOUR idol.

[AntonLee]

There are some religions where it is against doctrine to salute the flag btw what would the school do then?

Listen again.  They weren't trying to make her salute or say the words.  They were asking her to stand up.  If she can't at least learn to be well-mannered, her parents should remove her from the school.  Of course, it sounds like they are the problem.  Why do people seek to praise this behavior?

because not everyone is an asshole

[D Stewart]

Moebius, David & Pat -- you are misinterpreting my position.  I did not seek to sanction the actions of the school officials, and as I made clear in the other thread that Dave started on this ( http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=16901.msg202960#msg202960 ) I think the teachers acted wrongly.  

Jeremy -- She would be showing respect not to the flag or to the union but to the others there present who are showing their respect and allegiance to those things.  School, whether state or public or at home, is an appropriate place for a minor to grow up and learn such manners.  The educators, unfortunately, failed to appreciate the true reason why what she did was wrong, and instead it seems apparent that they regarded it as a more serious offense, and responded with an absurd, knee-jerk reaction on their part leading to abusive behavior on their part.

The only justifiable reason I could contemplate for her to act in this way would be if she were intentionally and actively seeking to denigrate (versus simply failing to respect and pledge allegiance to) the union of the states.  But that is not at all what she claimed on the video, and indeed the impression I received was that she referred to "issues" non-specifically because, despite having thought this through for a year or more, she didn't feel like she could present any strong justification of her viewpoint if she had to be more concrete in her concerns than that.

That all said, I think it would be a super suggestion to have all the NH schools make time not just for the pledge of allegiance every day but also, beforehand, a pledge to their state and its constitution.

[Fluff and Stuff]

Physically abusing students is never something the government schools should do.  However, it sounds like her government school treated her better than my government school did when I refused to stand for the pledge.

[Giggan]

I don't recite the pledge or put my hand on my heart, but I stand. Not because I want to, but because I could do without everyone else in the room thinking I'm some fascist asshole, or whatever else they want to believe. Not standing requires guts. It is something to be commended. This isn't rebellion for the sake of it, and this isn't a manners thing either. It would be a a lack of manners thing if there was disrespect to a person, not a cloth.

And I wouldn't even call not standing disrespect. Disrespect would be going out of your way to do something, like standing and turning your back on it. Yet it is expected that you stand, so not standing is interpreted by those practicing the civic religion as disrespect.

[John Edward Mercier]

Manners is something you do to earn the respect of others...

[KBCraig]

I stand while others recite the pledge.

I bow my head when they say, "Let us pray".

If I find myself in unfamiliar surroundings like a Catholic service, I try to stand, sit, kneel, etc., when others do.

If I enter an observant Jewish home, I will don a yarmulka if offered, or at least attempt to cover my head.

If I enter a home where everyone is expected to doff their shoes, I will go along with their tradition.

I don't do these things out of respect for what is being done, nor because I believe what they believe, but out of common courtesy so that I don't unnecessarily give offense to people with whom I am not engaged in a debate about such matters.

I haven't yet watched the Ridley Report on this, but from what people have said so far, I can only say that it was inexcusable for anyone to lay hands on this girl and force her to stand. It also looks like a poor way for her to make her point. It's certainly ineffective for persuading others.

[Bill St. Clair]

That all said, I think it would be a super suggestion to have all the NH schools make time not just for the pledge of allegiance every day but also, beforehand, a pledge to their state and its constitution.

Might as well pledge allegiance to Jehovah while we're at it, eh?

This girl was 15, and acted quite mature, so she likely knew pretty much what she was doing. In my grade school, back in 1961, when I was 5 years old, we stood for the pledge every morning. I had no idea what it was about. I complied because I didn't know better. Requiring a pledge of allegiance to ANYTHING from a young child is abhorrent to me. Until the age of consent, which varies widely from person to person, usually by the age of 18 but rarely before 13 to 15, requiring a pledge of allegiance is nothing but indoctrination. But then, indoctrination is the major reason for the existence of government schools.