The Schism!

[Mark_FTL]

I can totally see why someone would be disenchanted with voting in Keene. The socialists have such a strangle hold, that even if you vote something down, they do it anyway.

that is probably why some people don't care about the federal elections
it has happened many times to me
so i only vote here on the underground and in my house

I didn't vote in the Federal election either. I traded my votes on the federal level for someone's State Senate and below votes. But what I am talking about is votes on issues, not people. I think the argument that no one can truly represent you, is valid. Thus I fault no one for not voting for people, but I still think it is the friendly and neighborly thing to do to vote for fellow FSPers.

[Mark_FTL]

Voting hasn't been tried enough in the context of the FSP to see if it works. Progress is made over time. You had your disenchanting experience 3 years ago it the most corrupt city in New Hampshire.

I see.
I tried it a little. I guess i just want my freedom and others faster than they are willing to let me have it.
You guys with more patience will have to continue fighting the good fight by voting against the bad guys.

About 20 people have told the NH Free Press .... that their town is the most corrupt in NH. I believe them all.

I have been regretting my use of the superlative (although I am sure I am close) all morning, but I would like to point out that towns and cities are not the same in NH.

[thinkliberty]

but I would like to point out that towns and cities are not the same in NH.

But the real question is which town in NH is not corrupt?

[Mark_FTL]

but I would like to point out that towns and cities are not the same in NH.

But the real question is which town in NH is not corrupt?

I think that we can all agree that the definition of corruption is a continuum.

[Russell Kanning]

now mark is trying to corrupt the language ..... stone him!

[Puke]

ICE CREAM!

[dalebert]

ICE CREAM!

Wrong! You are wrong, WRONG, WRONG!!!!

[AntonLee]

Ice Cream is an initiation of force.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

I'm not sure where I stand on the whole voting thing, personally.

I will no longer lend my support to the activism of activists that refuse to vote to protect their friends and neighbors from the aggressions of the government.

I registered with the Republican party in 2008, the first time I associated myself with Republicans. I did this so that I could vote for Ron Paul during the primaries. Obviously, he didn't win the Republicrat nomination. When I went to the voting booth for the "real" election, I voted for the "most libertarian" candidates I could vote for. One I liked a LOT was a former Democrat turned libertarian like myself. He was a friendly guy, I even plugged the FSP to him, but at the time I don't think he seriously considered it.

For President, I voted "FREETALKLIVE.COM". Yes. I'm serious. My logic was that if ONE human being saw that vote and said "What did this dipshit waste his vote on?" and checked out the site, it was the BEST possible outcome there could have been in terms of promoting liberty.

Would you support MY activism, even with a vote such as mine?

Perhaps I should use a local example, since you seem to not like the Federal ones. That Democrat-turned-Libertarian I mentioned? Ran under the LP. I KNEW when I cast that local vote that this man would NOT get elected. Would it have been worse if I stayed home since the outcome would have been exactly the same?

So, now from a different angle.

Mark, you often criticize Ian for being an iconoclast, and you advocate practicality. What you're advocating here is "the promotion of liberty" but you seem to fail to realize that when you're talking that END GAME result "liberty" is different for everyone. Liberty to you might be lower taxes, but liberty for me is NOT being subject to a system of legitimized violence fueled by the opinion of a mass majority. I'm not interested in a discussion or debate over the defintions, I just want to point out those end goals and reframe it in your practical perspective. IF you were interested in MY definition of liberty, what would be the most practical route to it? IF you shared my end goal, might your stance on voting be different?

If your goal is MINIMIZING aggression, I think voting might actually work, I'll admit. However, my goal is in ABOLISHING systemic aggression and I'm sure that this can NOT be done while the act of voting is seen by others as legitimization of the use of force. My internal debate is not over the ethics of voting (I'll get there with my last point) but over the practical steps to my ideal end goal.

Finally...

There is one thing that can be said of voting that is true, regardless of what you think about the act. Today, the majority of people believe that voting legitimizes the actions of an aggressive government.

Mark, you've said several times on the show that your town has the "closest thing to direct democracy" and you alternate between this being a GOOD thing, because you can actually vote down the truck rather than voting for a scumbag who, today, claims he'll vote down the truck. On the flip side, when referring to democracy in general, you dislike it because you see it as mob rule.

I believe, without a doubt, 100%, democracy sucks ass. It's not the aggression even. All governments are aggressive and democracy is no different. Where democracy really sucks is that it blurs the line between "people" and "government". When I was a Democrat, I REALLY had this confusion. This is the very root of socialism. When you can't distinguish between "government" and "people", it's really hard to fathom how people would be taken care of if "people" (government) didn't do it.

That line that encourages socialism in the bleeding hearts affects the fascists as well. Notice how it's "our boys" blowing up brown people in the middle east. "We're" over there. You see this EVERY DAY, you even sometimes call people out on it and you admit that you do it yourself; you were taught so well.

But the other problem with that "people" v "government" issue is allocation of responsibility. You hear people sometimes talk about "moving on and supporting Our President" even when their guy lost the election. To those people (and they are legion) casting their vote IMPLIES ownership of the collective result of the vote even if they disagree withit.

BUt voters don't own the actions of government. When it comes down to it, the bureaucrats with guns making the decision to aggress are responsible. The bureaucrats in your town, today MIGHT aim that aggression to the will of the voter, but they might NOT. Either way, THEY, not the voter is responsible. This democratic "you're responsible if you don't vote X, Y or Z" is flawed. The voter isn't responsible for the aggression of they vote for it OR against it.

You might be interested in "reducing aggression" but the other part of liberty to me involves personal responsibility. I think they're greatly connected but I suppose they're slightly different. The non-aggression principle AND self-responsibility are virtues that I'm interested in promoting, and I think that the democratic process INHERENTLY shifts responsibility to actions away from those who commit aggression to those who merely put non-aggressive lines on a piece of paper.

[Mark_FTL]

Kevin-

You win.

But I still reserve the right to be as cranky as I feel like with people that don't vote when and how I want; in the elections I deem important and for the reason I deem valid.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

But I still reserve the right to be as cranky as I feel like with people that don't vote when and how I want; in the elections I deem important and for the reason I deem valid.

We can't have that! I change my answer! 

[Lloyd Danforth]

now mark is trying to corrupt the language ..... stone him!

We could vote on it!

[Lloyd Danforth]

ICE CREAM!

But, only Vanilla!

[Kat Kanning]

Kevin-

You win.

But I still reserve the right to be as cranky as I feel like with people that don't vote when and how I want; in the elections I deem important and for the reason I deem valid.

  Can we all hug and sing a round of kumbaya now?

[AntonLee]

and eat smores!