Coherent strategy

[thinkliberty]

The CD crowd and the politicos both have the same goal: liberty in our lifetime.

They have the same strategy: get important issues and liberty people known to other folks in the community in hopes of eventually having enough power to enact change.

They do it through many similar ways: rallies of lots of like-minded people usually centered around specific issues, communications with news media, sign waving, handing out fliers/pamphlets, and so on.

There are some differences worth noting: The politicos running for office talk about how they're going to represent the community by reducing the bad parts of society, making the good parts better, and try to convince enough of the public that it is in their best interest to vote for him/her (and/or send money). The CD folks also talk about the bad parts of society but try to demonstrate just how bad it is and why it is in the best interest of the public to stop supporting the bad parts and to do more good in any way they can.

So you see, the politicos and CD are two sides of the same coin, so to speak. The only way we're going to have liberty is by: (a) convincing or demonstrating to our neighbors that the current system is far from ideal, and (b) pass along understanding to our neighbors that there is a better way than the government "solutions" being proposed.

From what I have heard from the upset politicos is they get angry when people don't do exactly what they do in the way that they want you to do it. Their strategy only works, if everyone else votes the same way they vote in the same political election for the same reasons. -- legal, illegal and freedom becomes: "What will make the most people vote the way I want." (Rocketman is an example of this type of politico.)

The politicians see that they can take from some politically unpopular people and buy votes with those unpopular's peoples money. If you want to compete with the politicos using their game, you have to buy those voters back some how. Politicians have no problem selling your freedom for a quick buck, companies like the RIAA, MPAA and patent trolls have no problem giving money to politicians to take your freedoms from you. 

Politicos will never give you a good answer on how they plan on buying those votes back from the politicians. They'll need some way to make a more valuable offer for that vote, without selling the freedom of others at the same time.

If a politico wants me to sellout a freedom of others for a freedom that they feel is more important, they'll have to work against me.

[PaulOtt]

Paul I think you've misrepresented the anarchist ("outside-the-system") perspective. The anarchist strategy is not to to wave signs nor is it to just get a bunch of people together in the hopes something will eventually happen (tho anarchist sometimes participate in those kinds of efforts). Those are both politico (minarchist) strategies.

...

People can have liberty right now, using anarchistic strategies. No need to wait a lifetime. That's apparently a secret that's not getting past the minarchist filter.

Huh? So you're disagreeing that civ-dis people are trying to educate their neighbors how bad the system is? If the sole purpose of anarchy types is to "be free now" without convincing folks in the surrounding areas about how bad the system is, they won't ever be free. I'm not trying to be a downer, but it's generally Might Makes Right in this world and that Might is the people you see everyday. That's why the camera is so helpful in revealing the gun in the room, the unnecessary coercive force, and putting a human face to the victims being continually chewed up and spit out by the authorities who don't really care about them and aren't really looking out for their well-being.

Throwing monkey-wrenches in the system can be good and all, but if the general public doesn't agree with the monkey-wrenching, you're going to find a very hostile mob when the system comes down. And the system will probably go right back up again.

If you're only concerned with "being free now" and don't encourage understanding in your neighbors, you're not going to be free unless you're completely isolated from them. And that is a coherent strategy too. Buy an island or start a commune and you can be kinda free. I'm actually about to do something along those lines myself for a bit. But I would prefer to be free everywhere rather than in one isolated place. The freedom found in a basement all alone isn't actually freedom at all. It's a lot like being in jail. Or so I hear.

[Russell Kanning]

Throwing monkey-wrenches in the system can be good and all, but if the general public doesn't agree with the monkey-wrenching, you're going to find a very hostile mob when the system comes down. And the system will probably go right back up again.

I don't think you can nonviolently bring the system down without people changing their views on government. But you can act in a moral way before they agree with you and I think a good thing to do when facing tyranny is to throw wrenches into the system.

[George Donnelly]

If the sole purpose of anarchy types is to "be free now" without convincing folks in the surrounding areas about how bad the system is, they won't ever be free.

Again I'd like to impress upon you the possibility that one doesn't need anyone else's help in order to be free. We are free at the moment we wish to be (Voltaire).

And nobody else really cares about your liberty. You and you alone are responsible for securing that. We might be lucky to find a few like-minded folks to collaborate with, but in the final analysis each of us rises and falls, succeeds or fails, on our own merits, based on our own efforts.

and putting a human face to the victims being continually chewed up and spit out by the authorities who don't really care about them and aren't really looking out for their well-being.

Sometimes I wonder if victims aren't being manufactured and shown for our own detriment, and/or the "Look-How-Bad-Things-Are" school of activism is causing folks to be less and less sanguine about the prospects for liberty.

Throwing monkey-wrenches in the system can be good and all, but if the general public doesn't agree with the monkey-wrenching, you're going to find a very hostile mob when the system comes down. And the system will probably go right back up again.

I didn't say anything about monkey-wrenches. And that's a very vague term. I'm not even sure what you mean by it.

If you're only concerned with "being free now" and don't encourage understanding in your neighbors, you're not going to be free unless you're completely isolated from them. And that is a coherent strategy too. Buy an island or start a commune and you can be kinda free. I'm actually about to do something along those lines myself for a bit. But I would prefer to be free everywhere rather than in one isolated place. The freedom found in a basement all alone isn't actually freedom at all. It's a lot like being in jail. Or so I hear.

You're caricaturing what I said. The way you can know that is when you put in words like "only" in front of what I said and add-on things I didn't even mention saying I won't be doing them. When you talk about how alone I'll be it's another clue.

People will learn when they are ready to. I'm not against educational activities. I've done quite a few. I just find them to have less ROI than direct action efforts.

You can't be entirely free everywhere, even under anarchy, since everything would be owned by someone and you would have to conform to each owner's rules. The only place you could be completely free is on your own property. Which is something you can achieve right now anyway.

[dalebert]

Throwing monkey-wrenches in the system can be good and all, but if the general public doesn't agree with the monkey-wrenching, you're going to find a very hostile mob when the system comes down. And the system will probably go right back up again.

It would be some really impressive monkey-wrenching that brings an entire system down. It sounds violent. I think if a system just collapses because it sux that badly, particularly if it happens rapidly, then the culture of statism will still be strong and something evil will be built in its place. If it collapses due largely to a culture shift, with perhaps some monkey-wrenching along the way, then there is hope. I have very little interest in work that doesn't address the root of the problem which is a culture of violence.

[PaulOtt]

Sometimes I wonder if victims aren't being manufactured and shown for our own detriment, and/or the "Look-How-Bad-Things-Are" school of activism is causing folks to be less and less sanguine about the prospects for liberty.

I agree. Sometimes it does seem excessively contrived and can look like they're trying too hard for attention.

You're caricaturing what I said. The way you can know that is when you put in words like "only" in front of what I said and add-on things I didn't even mention saying I won't be doing them. When you talk about how alone I'll be it's another clue.

I apologize. Your post was very vague so I was doing my best to try and guess at what specifically you were talking about.

[George Donnelly]

Pls feel free to post your questions and I'll do my best to answer them.

[PaulOtt]

Okay. What do you mean by: "People can have liberty right now, using anarchistic strategies. No need to wait a lifetime."

[George Donnelly]

What I mean is that you can simply choose to live freely by ignoring the government gang's edicts and/or selecting where the government gang is least tyrannous based on your interests.

For example, you can become debt-free, become self-employed, own land, live in Grafton, build your own home, use solar power, grow your own food, ignore or avoid most taxes, trade counter-economically, use silver/gold/non-fiat currency as much as possible, use common law legal tactics to fend off the state, etc.

It's a paradigm shift, a different way of looking at things. Imagine we already live in the stateless society. We're free. We can do whatever we want as long as we don't aggress against anyone else. We can grow hemp and import stevia. You name it. Yay!

BUT there is this gang of con-men that is well-organized and has duped a lot of people into joining with them. Our job is to hold them off, expose them, etc.

Does that make sense?

[Russell Kanning]

so i talked to Muni again in Manchester yesterday. i keep forgetting who people are in real life

that was pretty good, even though i don't think we are communicating very well
you seem to connect better with Kat

[PaulOtt]

George,

I grew up in a very rural area in the middle of the woods with the nearest house being about a mile away. I've experienced something very similar to the freedom you seem to be talking about. Maybe I'm being selfish and ungrateful, but I'd like to have a lot more freedom than that.

Thanks for the explanation though.

[George Donnelly]

Me too. Can you describe this "lot more freedom" that you want?

Nobody said you had to stay on your own land 24/7 or that you couldn't travel. In fact you can be free now most anywhere. I live in a Philly 'burb and have my liberty already.

Be careful your own assumptions aren't interfering with your understanding of what I'm saying.

Liberty is an attitude. No one can take your liberty from you. They can punish you for exercising it. The tyrants' power comes from us. By exercising our liberty and denying them our sanction we reduce their power and enhance our own.

EDIT: What is it that you want to be free to do? What part of the tyrants' activities is most irritating? What personal goals do aggressors stand in the way of you accomplishing?

[Kat Kanning]

It seemed to me that Muni's big question was "how do we get thousands of people doing civil disobedience?"  I didn't get the impression he was wanting an argument/debate, but was really trying to understand where we were coming from.

[Lloyd Danforth]

We need thousands of people doing CD and, thousands voting for our candidates that run and, thousands of people ignoring the government and thousands costing the government income by monkeywrenching the system.
Some of this stuff may produce results in a reasonable amount of time.  All will bring more activists to NH.

[KBCraig]

It seemed to me that Muni's big question was "how do we get thousands of people doing civil disobedience?"

Improv Everywhere seems to have a handle on it: make it fun, and funny, and YouTube-able.