North Dakota voters to decide on abolishing property tax

[Silent_Bob]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-06-11/north-dakota-property-tax/55533784/1

North Dakota voters will decide Tuesday on the ultimate tax revolt: abolishing the property tax altogether. A citizen-led petition drive has put the daring, all-or-nothing proposal before the voters in a state flush with tax revenue, jobs and prosperity generated by an oil boom.

If the property tax is eliminated, it would be the first time since 1980 — when oil-rich Alaska got rid of its income tax — that a state has discontinued a major tax, reports the Tax Foundation, a non-partisan research group. North Dakota would become the only state not to have a property tax, a levy the state has had since before it joined the union in 1889.

"The oil boom makes it easier to get rid of the tax, but we started this before the oil boom took off," said Charlene Nelson, chairman of Empower The Taxpayer, which is leading the tax repeal effort. "Any state would benefit from this same thing."

North Dakota's political and business establishment has lined up against the measure. The state Chamber of Commerce, farm groups, unions and most elected officials are opposed.

The property tax generates about $800 million a year in North Dakota. Except for a small share for a state medical school, the money is collected by counties and used to fund schools and local governments.

"The property tax is the foundation of local government services," said Connie Sprynczynatyk, executive director of the North Dakota League of Cities. "It's the predictable source of revenue to pay for police and fire and other local services in the community where you live."

Measure 2, as the proposal is called on the ballot, would require state government to make up for property tax revenue lost by local governments but doesn't specify how. Sprynczynatyk said this vagueness makes it uncertain if the measure can be implemented.

North Dakota's attempt to banish the property tax reflects the sparsely populated state's streak of independence and populism.

Despite hot political rhetoric, governments and voters generally tinker with long-established taxing habits — raising and lowering rates, adding and removing tax breaks — rather than attempting radical change. California's Proposition 13, a voter-approved initiative in 1978 that started a nationwide effort to limit property taxes, slashed property tax rates and limited future increases but did not end the tax.

Property taxes date to the 19th century in most states, including North Dakota.

The property tax is the most unpopular of all taxes, according to polling by the Tax Foundation.

Nelson, the tax opponent, hopes North Dakota starts a brush fire elsewhere to end - not just lower — the property tax. "The problem with reducing a tax is it's like a weed. It always grows back," she said.

[WithoutAPaddle]

The author of the above article is Dennis Cauchon, who is from Somersworth, New Hampshire and was Editor of the UNH student newspaper back around 1980.  We were in the same Economics 617 Intermediate Macroeconomic Theory class.  He passed.  I didn't.

[Jim Johnson]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-06-11/north-dakota-property-tax/55533784/1

"The property tax is the foundation of local government services," said Connie Sprynczynatyk, executive director of the North Dakota League of Cities. "It's the predictable source of revenue to pay for police and fire and other local services in the community where you live."

i.e. The property tax is the assured method of taking money; since we got'em buy the cock and balls as well as the short hairs.  They have to take it up the ass or we get their homes.

[Tom Sawyer]

Don't hold back Johnson... let us know how you really feel on the matter. 

We too are struggling to pay our "property tax"... but, hey I think it's important for us to subsidize wealthier peoples kids in school! Even if it takes sustenance from our child.

The property tax is the most onerous of the taxes... a little old lady has to sell the house she raised her family in because her income is not what it used to be. Income taxes can be avoided, not the property tax.

Replace it with user fees that are not connected to the value of the property, but the services received.

[Russell Kanning]

that would be great .... the endless property tax hikes for public schools are horrible

[KBCraig]

I would agree that the property tax is the most insidious, because they'll take your house... except they'll take your house for income tax, too (c.f. Ed & Elaine Brown). And if they could figure a way to take your house for sales tax, they'd do that too.

[Russell Kanning]

they all are such a drain ..... paying property taxes forever
paying some of your income ..... every year
I have met many people who can escape the IRS ... but noone seems to escape the property tax man and the deputies

[MaineShark]

And if they could figure a way to take your house for sales tax, they'd do that too.

They will.  Remember, most states that have sales taxes assert that you owe it even on purchases made in other states.  So, if someone drives from Maine to NH to purchase something for use when they get back home in Maine, they're "supposed to" write a check to the State of Maine when they get back.

While they don't tend to bother with small stuff like buying a pair of pants at the mall, they have had "crack downs" on folks making larger purchases, like building materials and such.  And there's no reason that they wouldn't seize your house to repay your "debt" to them, after they convict you.  Or maybe before, with the asset forfeiture laws...

Sales taxes are actually the most insidious direct tax, because they insert themselves into nearly every transaction, and turn innocent shopkeepers into tax collectors.  It's not enough that they do their dirty deeds; they have to drag others into the mud, too, so they don't feel lonely down there.

Income taxes are insidious, but not as much as sales taxes.  I can hire subcontractors instead of employees, so I don't have to collect any taxes.  They manage their own accounting, and pay whatever amount of income tax they choose, based upon their own conscience; I'm not taking some percentage of their pay away from them and handing it to the government.

Property taxes, while annoying, are some of the least-insidious.  You get a bill once or twice a year, which clearly states exactly what the assessment is, and what the various tax rates are for different levels of government which are taxing you.  It's easy to see who's mugging you, and for how much.  Since much of it is set by the local town, you have a far more direct chance of changing it: if I go in and vote down a spending item, the tax bill will reflect that.  Try getting any actual change in the Federal income tax rate, or even in a State-level sales or income tax.  There are also a number of ways to get your tax bill reduced, which actually reduce what you pay in, rather than get you a refund later, after the government has been holding your money for months.

Much as I dislike all taxes, property taxes are one of the least-damaging: they are easier to fight, and that yearly bill reminds you that you are being mugged for hundreds or thousands of dollars, rather than being snuck into each transaction, a tiny amount at a time, so that you slowly get used to it.

[WithoutAPaddle]

From MSNBC, 6/13/2012:

North Dakota voters reject measure to abolish property taxes
By Reuters

North Dakota voters on Tuesday soundly rejected a ballot measure that sought to make the oil-rich state the first to abolish property taxes, a move critics said would have undermined local governments and forced an increase in taxes overall.

The measure, which would have required state lawmakers to come up with a way to replace $812 million in lost property tax revenues for 2012 alone, was defeated by a vote of 77.5 percent to 22.5 percent, with 70 percent of precincts reporting.

A varied coalition organized opposition to the measure, including the North Dakota Chamber of Commerce, which said it was looking for "broad based" reform of personal income, corporate and sales taxes as well as property taxes.

"We would like to see all levels of our taxes go down, spread it across all of our tax streams," Jon Godfread, vice president of governmental affairs for the chamber, said in a telephone interview before the polls closed.

Supporters of the proposal called property taxes among the most regressive and argued that North Dakota's booming oil economy has produced low unemployment levels and hefty budget surpluses that would make the transition easier.

"The surplus makes it easy for us to fund whatever revenue might be lost when the measure passes," said Charlene Nelson, chairwoman of the group that proposed the measure.

Nelson said earlier that the group did not expect the measure to be approved by voters, but they would try again next year if lawmakers fail to approve broad-based tax changes.

"We will give them a chance," Nelson said. "My guess is they will be unable, unwilling, incapable of reforming this tax because it really is unfixable."

The measure would have eliminated $812 million in property tax revenue from 2012 and $1.8 billion from the next two-year budget period, according to a nonpartisan legislative analysis.

The measure also would have required North Dakota state legislators to replace lost revenue to cities, counties, townships, school districts and other political subdivisions without specifying how that was to be done.

Moody's had issued a special comment on the measure, saying that if voters were to approve it, local and municipal governments in North Dakota would face significant financial pressure.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Much as I dislike all taxes, property taxes are one of the least-damaging: they are easier to fight, and that yearly bill reminds you that you are being mugged for hundreds or thousands of dollars, rather than being snuck into each transaction, a tiny amount at a time, so that you slowly get used to it.

It's a small advantage, but from an anti-tax activist perspective, the fact that the victims have to write out that check trice a year, gets them more involved in keeping them down.

Still, all taxation is theft.

[MaineShark]

Much as I dislike all taxes, property taxes are one of the least-damaging: they are easier to fight, and that yearly bill reminds you that you are being mugged for hundreds or thousands of dollars, rather than being snuck into each transaction, a tiny amount at a time, so that you slowly get used to it.

It's a small advantage, but from an anti-tax activist perspective, the fact that the victims have to write out that check trice a year, gets them more involved in keeping them down.

Still, all taxation is theft.

Indeed.  You may not realize a pickpocket took your wallet until hours later, but you notice if a mugger shows up and demands it from you.  It's hard to do anything about the pickpocket, because his actions are so subtle, but the mugger presents you with a set of clear choices.

[Lloyd Danforth]

As I come here before looking at News, I didn't know how the vote came out until I read Without's post.

I have been suggesting to all of my young friends around here to, basically, screw the FSP and move to ND for, possibly the last time in their lives they will have an opportunity to make a pile of dough to buy the metal, land and other things for their future.

Now, I will have to add "But, look out for the 3 Assholes out of each 4 people there".

[Tom Sawyer]

The Communist Manifesto:

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

Property tax is a progressive tax, it is the means that the estates in England were stolen from the heirs. If you buy a big house when you can afford it, they'll tax it away from you when you retire or the economy goes soft.

Good luck fighting the assessment on your property... talk about a conflict of interest, the people that say what the "value" is are the ones collecting the revenue. Even if the citizens bring down the rate, the powers that be just up the assessments.

[KBCraig]

I have been suggesting to all of my young friends around here to, basically, screw the FSP and move to ND for, possibly the last time in their lives they will have an opportunity to make a pile of dough to buy the metal, land and other things for their future.

My younger cousin just moved there, and one younger FSP friend is looking at moving there from Washington.

[Jim Johnson]

I have been suggesting to all of my young friends around here to, basically, screw the FSP and move to ND for, possibly the last time in their lives they will have an opportunity to make a pile of dough to buy the metal, land and other things for their future.

My younger cousin just moved there, and one younger FSP friend is looking at moving there from Washington.

It is reminiscent of the migration to California in the 1930's and the rush to Alaska for the oil pipeline in the 1970's.  It will get even bigger when Canada runs pipes down to the gulf of Mexico.