critical time in the arena of consumer privacy

[ravelkinbow]

Hello NH CASPIAN members and friends,

We are at a critical time in the arena of consumer privacy.  I hope
you can join us on March 8th to help in this fight.

RFID is in the news everywhere.  A Cincinnati company began injecting
its workers with tiny RFID chips.  Hewlett-Packard announced that it
will put RFID tags into its printers.  (Currently they only tag boxes.)
And here in New Hampshire, our RFID labeling bill is slowly working
its way through the state house.

The RFID industry is watching New Hampshire closely.  They know that a
majority of consumers don't like the idea of tracking devices in the
products they buy.  They enjoy the fact that no disclosure is required.
And they want to keep it that way...

Around the nation, RFID labeling bills have been introduced in various
state capitols.  And one by one, like lions working a herd of zebras,
those bills have been pulled down and killed.  Here in New Hampshire,
with our long tradition of respect for privacy, we can set the example
for the rest of the country.

HB203 would require manufacturers and retailers to label products
containing RFID tags.  It would ban human implantation without informed
consent.  And it would put restrictions on the way the State Government
could use the technology, prohibiting it from hiding RFID tags in
school IDs, library cards, and drivers? licenses.  If passed, HB203
will be a great step forward for consumer privacy in the United States.
Other states will follow.  But one state needs to be first.

You can read the text of the bill at
http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/legislation/2006/HB0203.html

On March 8th, in room 100 of the State House, a public hearing will be
held on this bill.  The hearing is currently scheduled for 10:50 am.
It is important that we pack this hearing with as many people as
possible.  Professional lobbyists will be there... will you?

Even before the actual hearing, the committee members will be
considering where they stand on this issue.  Now is our opportunity to
call them and ask our representatives to support our right to know.
Only six members are on the committee... can you find the time to make
six phone calls?  All the information you need is at:
http://www.nhcaspian.org/HB203-2006.shtml  (Legislators are on break
this week, you stand an excellent chance of reaching them.)

In the next month, our representatives will be making a decision on the
future of this bill.  Please, plan to join us on March 8th, and make a
half dozen phone calls to encourage them to vote the right way.  You
can also find the towns that these Senators represent at
http://www.nhcaspian.org/HB203-2006.shtml ; if you're a constituant,
let them know.

Prior to the public hearing, NH CASPIAN will hold its regular meeting
on March 2nd, at 7pm in Bedford.  Details are on the main page at
http://www.nhcaspian.org/

[PowerPenguin]

DownsizeDC and the EFF oppose this. Check out the sites. Anyway, there are some easy ways to disable and/or jam RFID devices, which is a plus I guess...

[aries]

DownsizeDC and the EFF oppose this. Check out the sites. Anyway, there are some easy ways to disable and/or jam RFID devices, which is a plus I guess...

Even better, there are ways to detect their presence and REFUSE to buy them. And make it known to the store owner or manager that you are not buying this because it has RFID, and for NO other reason.

If you google around for a handheld reader or similar device, they're costly and hard to come by.

Hopefully the NH bill requiring that products will be marked goes ahead... No reason for it not to, Government loves regulating business!

[PowerPenguin]

True, but they also love 'national security' crap too...

[ravelkinbow]

This is good legislation that gives us as comsumers the choice.  I want the chance to op out, it is already in products, such as gillette and hp's newest printers..helll gillette goes so far as to put cameras in displays.

[tracysaboe]

Hopefully the NH bill requiring that products will be marked goes ahead... No reason for it not to, Government loves regulating business!

Hopefully NOT! We already have too much government regulation. You don't have any right to be "informed" of their presence. If you want to know if products had those tags attached to them, that's your job to find out.  You don't any any right pointing guns at businesses and forcing them to disclose RFID usage anymore then you have a right to point a gun at a business owners head and force them to tell you whether his products are made in the USA or not, or what's in them.

If people want to be informed a market w/ develope for such information. I would think a fellow libertarian wouldn't short-circut that process w/ "there ought to be a law," Nonsense.

Tracy

[Bald Eagle]

Digimarc - The "Marc" of the Beast in '08

http://www.tcftalk.com/clairefiles/index.php?topic=8658.0

[ravelkinbow]

Think about all the ways we have already lost our right to privacy and what would happen if we lost it all together.  Where a product is made can not compare to someone knowing everything you buy or being able to follow you with your ez pass.

[PowerPenguin]

All I have to say is... Singapore!

[tracysaboe]

Think about all the ways we have already lost our right to privacy and what would happen if we lost it all together.  Where a product is made can not compare to someone knowing everything you buy or being able to follow you with your ez pass.

In principle there's no difference. Using government FORCE to get information.

Where are your principles.

Tracy

[ravelkinbow]

Think about all the ways we have already lost our right to privacy and what would happen if we lost it all together.  Where a product is made can not compare to someone knowing everything you buy or being able to follow you with your ez pass.

In principle there's no difference. Using government FORCE to get information.

Where are your principles.

Tracy

My principles as you put it, are having the choice to not be tracked!

[aries]

Hopefully the NH bill requiring that products will be marked goes ahead... No reason for it not to, Government loves regulating business!

Hopefully NOT! We already have too much government regulation. You don't have any right to be "informed" of their presence. If you want to know if products had those tags attached to them, that's your job to find out.  You don't any any right pointing guns at businesses and forcing them to disclose RFID usage anymore then you have a right to point a gun at a business owners head and force them to tell you whether his products are made in the USA or not, or what's in them.

If people want to be informed a market w/ develope for such information. I would think a fellow libertarian wouldn't short-circut that process w/ "there ought to be a law," Nonsense.

Tracy

I know, but for my own selfish reasons, I want this bill to pass.
It's not the most libertarian bill, but it's not a partisan issue, and it's likely to pass.

It is possible for manufacturers to hide chips in their products or packaging, and the consumer has NO WAY of knowing. I do not think, even as a libertarian, that it is not within the government's authority to do something to aid the consumer in a case like this.

Perhaps it's not the best way of getting the message out there, maybe asking that producers of products with RFID politely report them to a registrar would work best. But for now, RFID tags are a totally unique and new thing in the market.

I can't refute your argument because you're right... but I can't say I'd prefer not knowing whether or not what I'm buying contained a spychip to government regulations.
And as soon as consumers are able to find out on their own, be it through a scanner or if businessowners do the right thing and independently label every product they purchase, this bill should be repealed asap.

EDIT:
Also, I have no qualms with government initiation of force for certain things such as this. It is not a precious trade secret as to whether or not an RFID chip is in a product, it costs very little to mark a package, especially for a company that can afford to chip whatever's in it. Consumers, IMO, do have a right to know in situations like this that affect their privacy. We have a right to know how our personal information is being used by a product we aquire. Sure, nobody forces us to aquire that product, but the choice is a lot harder when we don't know exactly what we're getting.
In a perfect world, everybody would stop buying from companies that didn't voluntarily divulge that their products were chipped. But they won't. This is a case where government intervention, to me at least, seems a marginal evil.

[tracysaboe]

The problem w/ your argument however is this.

There IS no right to privacy. The only right to privacy is the right to not have government snooping in your waires, and other rights to privacy that stem from property rights. (For instance if somebody was covertly tresspassing into your property.)

These RIFD tags don't fall under any of these conditions. They don't tresspass. In fact, if you bring them into your home, it's because you volentarily agreed to purchase it and bring it into your home. They aren't some nefarious conspiracy theory. They're simply chips businesses use to try to protect their merchandise from theft.

It's nobody's responsibility but your own to not buy things that you don't like. I understand you don't know all the things that these are attached to, and I understand the tempation to believe that a law forcing businesses to disclose is an easy solution.

But frankly, not everybody cares about this. (I for one.) And it's immoral for you to use government to force other people to pay for this use of force.

2ndly, this isn't an issue of fraud. It's not like the companies are lieing to you and telling you they aren't using these things when they are when you purchase them. They're simply not disclosing. And their are two reasons for this.

Some things get the chips, and some things don't. Cataloging all of this in a format for consumers to read would be a bit expensive. It would most certainly cost money for businesses to invest in "full disclosure" how is that just? Raising the prices of everything (al biet very minutely but raising them just the same.) In the end consumers will pay higher costs. However cheep and easy you think complying w/ said new regulation is, in the end it's not completely free.

Eventually there will be a market for this sort of thing. Some companies might very well deside to advertise RFID FREE! on their packaging. And others won't. People that care about it will be more then happy to pay the higher amount for this information. Others won't. But a law would force everybody to pay for it whether they like it or not. How is that just?

The other reason many businesses probably prefer to not disclose is that they don't want criminals and thieves to know what their security devices are. Would I want a thief to know what my security systems are? Please! This law would only help criminals because they'd know what stuff is easier to steal and what stuff isn't.

Most businesses deactivate these things when you check out anyway? I really don't see the big deal.

Here's the thing that many people -- even libertarians -- don't seem to understand. When private businesses and other private entities track things, it's for legitimate protection and legitimately trying to serve the customer. When government tracks you, it's for far more ominous reasons. (The only covet to this is the government nowdays can force a private company to hand over records w/o a warrant on whim. The solution here of course however, is not to empower government w/ more laws -- but to stip it down to size and weaken it.)

If you don't like RFID's? Fine. Don't shop at places that are known to do it, protest and bring public attention to the problem. But don't force taxpayers and consumers that don't care about it to pay for it, and don't empower government to do it.

Government is not the solution.

Tracy

[tracysaboe]

Think about all the ways we have already lost our right to privacy and what would happen if we lost it all together.  Where a product is made can not compare to someone knowing everything you buy or being able to follow you with your ez pass.

In principle there's no difference. Using government FORCE to get information.

Where are your principles.

Tracy

My principles as you put it, are having the choice to not be tracked!

You have losts of choices. Don't buy from companies that knowingly use them. Don't shop at places that knowingly use them. If you're really paranoid take precautions on everything you purchase. Don't socialize the cost on society to pay for your paranoia.

Tracy

[Pat McCotter]

The problem w/ your argument however is this.

There IS no right to privacy. The only right to privacy is the right to not have government snooping in your waires, and other rights to privacy that stem from property rights. (For instance if somebody was covertly tresspassing into your property.)

Can't use absolutes Tracy. Either there is a right to privacy or there isn't a right to privacy. IF - yes I capitalized IF - you are referring to Constitutional rights, yes there is. The Constitution does not state that there is no right to privacy. The Bill of Rights is not an exhaustive list and does not, by logic, give some rights and take away others. The Constitution tells the government what it is allowed to do.

These RIFD tags don't fall under any of these conditions. They don't tresspass. In fact, if you bring them into your home, it's because you volentarily agreed to purchase it and bring it into your home. They aren't some nefarious conspiracy theory. They're simply chips businesses use to try to protect their merchandise from theft.

It's nobody's responsibility but your own to not buy things that you don't like. I understand you don't know all the things that these are attached to, and I understand the tempation to believe that a law forcing businesses to disclose is an easy solution.

But frankly, not everybody cares about this. (I for one.) And it's immoral for you to use government to force other people to pay for this use of force.

I like Gillette shavers. I buy one without knowing it is RFID chipped. I did not voluntarily take that chip into my house.

2ndly, this isn't an issue of fraud. It's not like the companies are lieing to you and telling you they aren't using these things when they are when you purchase them. They're simply not disclosing. And their are two reasons for this.

Some things get the chips, and some things don't. Cataloging all of this in a format for consumers to read would be a bit expensive. It would most certainly cost money for businesses to invest in "full disclosure" how is that just? Raising the prices of everything (al biet very minutely but raising them just the same.) In the end consumers will pay higher costs. However cheep and easy you think complying w/ said new regulation is, in the end it's not completely free.

Eventually there will be a market for this sort of thing. Some companies might very well deside to advertise RFID FREE! on their packaging. And others won't. People that care about it will be more then happy to pay the higher amount for this information. Others won't. But a law would force everybody to pay for it whether they like it or not. How is that just?

The other reason many businesses probably prefer to not disclose is that they don't want criminals and thieves to know what their security devices are. Would I want a thief to know what my security systems are? Please! This law would only help criminals because they'd know what stuff is easier to steal and what stuff isn't.

Most businesses deactivate these things when you check out anyway? I really don't see the big deal.

Wrong, they deactivate anti-theft tags, not RFID chips. Most stores currently do not have RFID readers let alone deactivators.

Here's the thing that many people -- even libertarians -- don't seem to understand. When private businesses and other private entities track things, it's for legitimate protection and legitimately trying to serve the customer. When government tracks you, it's for far more ominous reasons. (The only covet to this is the government nowdays can force a private company to hand over records w/o a warrant on whim. The solution here of course however, is not to empower government w/ more laws -- but to stip it down to size and weaken it.)

What are the legitimate reasons for stores tracking me outside their purview? How does one keep the government from tracking people using the manufacturers' RFID tags?

If you don't like RFID's? Fine. Don't shop at places that are known to do it, protest and bring public attention to the problem. But don't force taxpayers and consumers that don't care about it to pay for it, and don't empower government to do it.

Government is not the solution.

Tracy

Tracy, you may be surprised, but I agree with you. Manufacturers and stores should be allowed to use RFID. It helps in their cost-cutting efforts.

RFID readers will come down in price. RFID deactivators will be created and be priced low enough for the average person to buy and use.

What we need to be telling the government is that we don't want to be tracked. The government does not need to know our location unless we do something wrong. It does not need to spend millions of dollars trying to ostensibly track criminals by tracking everybody.