Extreme Politics - not for the fainthearted

[Caleb]

Then pray to whatever God you revere that the U.S. doesn't attack Iran, because if it does, this is happening!

By the way, I love my countrymen, too.  But I have no respect for my government, and therefore no respect for their stupid banners and symbols.

[AlanM]

Then pray to whatever God you revere that the U.S. doesn't attack Iran, because if it does, this is happening!

By the way, I love my countrymen, too.  But I have no respect for my government, and therefore no respect for their stupid banners and symbols.

Bless you, Caleb.

[Lex]

You know, Kevin, THAT is precisely what I am trying to change.  We live in a culture that practically worships the government.  It's weird because 70% of people think we're on the wrong track.  And I wonder, "why aren't they revolting?" 

The answer is because there is a deeply entrenched underlying cause that is stronger than their momentary dissatisfaction:  PATRIOTISM

Understand, when I say "patriotism" I'm talking about the FALSE kind of patriotism.  The "my country, right or wrong" type. 

I'm going to say this:  Patriotism (Nationalism) is a form of worship.  If you are a Christian who is a "proud American" you are an idolator!  If you are an atheist who is a "proud American" ... well, you aren't really an atheist.  You have a God alright, he's Uncle Sam.

We live in a country where a mindless pledge ("of ALLEGIANCE" no less) is considered a virtue.  Where its practically demanded that you say "Thank you for your service to our country" to a veteran.  Where "I DON'T support the troops!" is practically blasphemous speech.  Where I can't enjoy a football game without a musical indoctrination session prior to the game.

By burning their symbol, maybe I can erode that a little.  The U.S. government, with all its atrocities, cannot hope to survive if nationalism is destroyed in the hearts of men.

The reason you guys don't like it is because it strikes a little too close to the root for your comfort, and you're afraid of the repurcussions.  Someone told me, "I hope you don't get beat up!"  That shows the problem, doesn't it:  that someone would be willing to physically attack someone else for burning a piece of cloth is indicative of a larger problem:  they worship the idea behind it!

Caleb

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But I am skeptical that the message you want to bring across will come across as you intended.

But, I think what you have said in the post above  you should put in the pamphlets and your press releases because I think that explains your reason for burning the flag much better than just to say you are burning it because we are at war with Iran. In your messages I think you should stress constantly that you "Love the American people but hate the American government", i think that will resonnate with people and they may have a bit more tolerance for what you will be doing and hopefuly support your actions.

I hope everything works out for the best. I think you are the real patriot Caleb and bless you.

[KBCraig]

By the way, I love my countrymen, too.  But I have no respect for my government, and therefore no respect for their stupid banners and symbols.

That "stupid banner" belongs to the people, not the government. Those countrymen you love take it as a personal insult when you burn their "stupid banner".

I know your heart is right on this, Caleb. I just don't think you'll achieve anything worthwhile. Certainly not enough to offset the negative.

Kevin

[tracysaboe]

I also have to agree with Kevin. I don't think anyone will understand. You will just get yourselves thrown in jail and nobody will have gotten anything out of it, except anyone who sees you on the street will think you guys are nutsos. Even a rational person will think: How the heck is burning the US flag going to achieve anything good?

You wouldn't get yourselves thrown in jail. There's nothing illegal about burning your own personal flag.

Tracy

[tracysaboe]

By the way, I love my countrymen, too.  But I have no respect for my government, and therefore no respect for their stupid banners and symbols.

That "stupid banner" belongs to the people, not the government. Those countrymen you love take it as a personal insult when you burn their "stupid banner".

I know your heart is right on this, Caleb. I just don't think you'll achieve anything worthwhile. Certainly not enough to offset the negative.

Kevin

I guess we're all liberals now Kevin, right 

It used to be that liberals cared more about symbles then reality. Apparently conservatives do too.  Do you care more about that symbol then the realities and concepts behind it?

That "symbol" doesn't "belong" to anyone.  Each piece of cloth is owned by the individual who owns it.  The symbol is ownerless -- just like any other piece of IP.  Or it's commonly owned (if you will) in which case Caleb is part of the common, if he wants to burn it, well it's his damb symble too.

I don't respect the symble one whit. I've refused to say the pledge or even salute it for several years now.

It's a graven immage. Pure and simple. I have more respect for the confederate flag, the Betsy Ross, Flag, and especialy the "Don't Tread on ME" flag.

I still agree with you though. This is going to back-fire on him.  The media are going to misquote him. And he'll attract a bunch of communists and ultimately do a disservice to himself. But be against him doing it for the right reasons. None of this collectivist "It's owned by the people" nonsense.

Tracy

[FrankChodorov]

Or it's commonly owned (if you will) in which case Caleb is part of the common, if he wants to burn it, well it's his damb symble too.

Tracy-

is this breaking news?

you're turning into a "common"ist...

[tracysaboe]

You've known for years I don't believe in the legitimacy IP.

Now go hijack somebody elses thread.

Tracy

[Russell Kanning]

I think many people in our town will understand this action. Some will still disagree.

[FrankChodorov]

You've known for years I don't believe in the legitimacy IP.

so do you see IP as part of the social commons?

[aries]

"I was born an American; I will live an American; I shall die an American."
-Daniel Webster

If Iran attacks the US, the only flags I will be burning will be Iranian.

If the US attacks Iran, I'll join in burning photographs of our politicians and copies of our laws.

[Lex]

"I was born an American; I will live an American; I shall die an American."
-Daniel Webster

If Iran attacks the US, the only flags I will be burning will be Iranian.

If the US attacks Iran, I'll join in burning photographs of our politicians and copies of our laws.

Yeah, Iranian soldiers will swim across the ocean... 

[Caleb]

it'll be an honor to work with you for peace, Aries.

As a sidenote ... if Iran purportedly attacks us, you'll do yourself a service if you demand INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF of Iran's involvement. 

Remember, Colin Powell went before the U.N. and claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.  The U.S. is not opposed to lying to get its agenda supported.

[Caleb]

Here's a draft copy of my press release:
-------------------------------------

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE  - 6/11/06

Contact:

Caleb Johnson
63 Emerald St. #424
Keene, NH 03431
(603) 209-7703

NEW HAMPSHIRE ACTIVIST PLANS ?SHOCK AND AWE? IN EVENT OF IRAN INVASION

Although the recent agreement for talks between the American and Iranian governments may possibly end the tension and take the military option off the table, for New Hampshire activist Caleb Johnson, the threat of military action is still very real ? real enough that he has developed his own contingency plan.

Johnson is the founder of Republic of New Hampshire, an organization which advocates for New Hampshire's independence from the United States.  He became involved in peace activism shortly after U.S. President George W Bush admitted to the world that Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction.

?For me, that was a real eye opener,? he said.  ?It caused me to wonder, `If they were wrong about something so important, how can we believe anything the federal government says?'  After that, I started doing a lot of reading on U.S. History, and what I learned made my stomach turn.  Before, I had a vague, general impression that we had probably done some questionable things in the past.  But when you really get into the facts of history, when you start to learn the details, it raises deep and disturbing questions about the moral legitimacy of the federal government.?

Of course, every government has things in its past that are embarrassing.  But as a devoted Christian, Johnson feels that the question of moral legitimacy is the determining factor when judging governments.  ?The question I must ask, at the end of the day, is this:  Knowing what I know, can I support this government and still call myself a Christian?  And in the case of the U.S., when I got to the point where that answer was `No', I knew I had to do something.?

What Johnson did was stop paying his taxes.  This was a slow and painful process for him, but he says he has no regrets.  ?For me, getting to the point where I stopped sending money into the government was hard.  I kept second-guessing myself.  It took me months to make the decision.  But one day I just looked myself in the mirror and asked, `Are you going to pay for torture today?'  I knew then what I had to do.?

Johnson has been deeply troubled by the rattling of the sabres against Iran.  On June 11, 2006 he started a week long fast in behalf of the people of Iran, an action which he plans to repeat often until the crisis is settled.  ?But I knew that wasn't going to be good enough,? he said, ?so I decided to start my own `Shock and Awe' in the event of U.S. Aggression against Iran.?

Johnson's planned ?Shock and Awe? is simple.  ?On the Saturday following any action against Iran, I plan on marching right down into downtown Keene, NH, and burning a U.S. flag to show my disgust with the American government.  I'll keep burning flags every Saturday until the U.S. ceases its aggression.?

Some have questioned Johnson's patriotism, but he has a response for them:  ?I consider myself patriotic.  I love my countrymen and wish only peace upon my homeland.  But I can no longer tolerate or respect the government of this land.  I'm not nationalistic.  I consider nationalism to be a sort of false patriotism, a spirit that will support the government of the land, even when it has become terminally evil.  That sort of false patriotism is the poison that infected the Germans during the NAZI era; it is a disease; it is an idolatry.?

[tracysaboe]

You've known for years I don't believe in the legitimacy IP.

so do you see IP as part of the social commons?

Go back and re-read your Free Market environmentalism.

You'll find a good definition of "the Commons" in their.

You know me well enough to understand my meaning.

Now: go get a brain, learn something new for a change, and hijack somebody elses thread, in somebody elses forum.

Be careful.  The flag means more to many than just a corrupt government.

We're all trying to explain that to Caleb.

Tracy