On Bush, Hitler, and the Emperor without any Clothes

[Caleb]

Well, I guess I'll post this in "whining" where it belongs.

A lot of people are saying that we need to moderate what we say, so as to be more "palatable" to our hearers.  Sort of the "you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" thing.

But maybe I could throw this thought at those of you who think this.

There are LOTS of people who are saying that its not that bad.  A lot of times, they use that excuse, in their own minds, to continue to go along with it. "Well, I'll go ahead and arrest this guy, because the system isn't THAT bad yet, so he'll be out pretty soon.  I mean, if Hitler were running the show, or something, I wouldn't do this, but ... we're not there ... yet."

And then tomorrow comes, and a little tiny bit more freedom is taken away.  And those same people say, "well, its a little worse.  But its not THAT much worse than it was yesterday.  Certainly not enough to start a revolution."

And then tomorrow comes, and a little tiny bit more freedom is taken away.  And those same people say, "well, its a little worse.  But its not THAT much worse than it was yesterday ..."  And so on, and so on.

I'm sure we all know about the little frog who jumps out of the boiling water if you throw him in, but if you slowly turn it up on him, you can boil him.  He won't feel the ever increasing temperature...

I think if the Founders were that frog, they'd be jumping out as soon as you threw them in.  But we've watched it slowly get worse.  "Well, it's not THAT much more hot than it was yesterday ..."  Until we're cooked.

Someone has to say, "You know what, that water is pretty freakin' HOT!"  Someone has to say, "you know ... that emperor doesn't have any clothes on."

If it isn't us ... than who?

Caleb

[KBCraig]

You and I are both Christians, so let me ask: are the affairs of this world more important than spiritual matters?

I'm sure you agree with me that they are not.

So much more is at stake with a person's soul, than with the government they live under. But do you stand on corners yelling at passersby that they're going to hell if they don't accept Jesus? Why not?

The obvious answer is that you won't lead anyone to Jesus by antagonizing them. You deliver the truth in a way they can accept. You show them love, and live your life as an example.

Why do you think you'll convert people to a Freedom way of thinking by making outrageous comparisons that will cause most people --even people who strongly oppose Bush-- immediately tune out anything else you have to say?

The water is hot. No denying it. But the Third Reich was an open flame in comparison.

Kevin

[Caleb]

Do I think the affairs of this world are more important than spiritual matters?  I think they are related.  I believe the most important thing a Christian can do is to be "the salt of the earth".  If we forsake this commission, we cannot expect that people will find Christianity relevant.

But do you stand on corners yelling at passersby that they're going to hell if they don't accept Jesus? Why not?

Personally?  No.  But then again, I know someone who does, to great success (see the video "Hell's Best Kept Secret").  You may not find it palatable, but it IS effective.

I think sometimes we're so afraid of sounding like we aren't "Reasonable" that we forget that being reasonable in an insane world is actually insane.  We need to be sounding the truth from the mountaintops.

Caleb

[Braddogg]

When people read a flier that says "Bush = Hitler," what do you think goes through the reader's mind?  Be honest.

[Caleb]

It would depend on who the person is, Braddog.  The following reactions are possible (and more that I don't even list)

1)  The person could immediately discount what you say, without even reading the flyer.
2)  The person could immediately love what you say, without even reading the flyer.
3)  The person could think "that's over the top" ... but be so curious that they read the flyer anyway, and be affected by it in a positive way.
4)  The person could think "that's over the top" ... but be so curious that they read the flyer anyway, and still think its over the top.
5)  The person could become violently angry.
6)  The person could think that the flyer hurts their chances of getting elected to some political office due to "guilt by association" ... (note, this class is exceptionally small in real life, but HUGE within the FSP.)
7)  The person could think, "you know what ... I COULD DO MORE TO FIGHT THIS FASCISM" and get inspired to join the FSP.

The person's reaction is up to him.

We're just the salt.  Remember Jesus' parable of the seed falling on different types of soil.  We don't hold back the seed (of truth).  We just spread it and let the people respond how they will.

[Pat K]

When people read a flier that says "Bush = Hitler," what do you think goes through the reader's mind?  Be honest.

Um that hitler was never almost taken out by a Pretzel?

[9thmoon]

Everyone's asking me why I'm moving to NH.

To my boss and her boss and friends of the family and random strangers and acquaintances, I say "I really like the political climate over there.  Have you heard of the Free State Project?"

To my friends and lovers, I say "A whole bunch of us libertarians are moving there to take over the government" with a mischievous grin. 

Know your audience.

What any of us, who are already here, participating, might think about a flyer comparing Bush to Hitler is probably not the same as what someone who is an employee of the federal or local government will think.  These are people who have bought into Mommy Government and make their living sucking at the teat!  What do you think they will see when they look at that flier?  Conspiracy theorist.  Anti-american.  Nut job.  You have to talk to people in their own language.  We know Russel's not any of those things.  They don't.  :shrug:

[Braddogg]

We're just the salt.  Remember Jesus' parable of the seed falling on different types of soil.  We don't hold back the seed (of truth).  We just spread it and let the people respond how they will.

The parable applies only to the Word of Life because of its supernatural aspects.

And I'm getting sick of arguing this point, because you are so plainly convinced that it's a good idea to compare a person who slaughtered 5 million innocent people -- on top of the slaughter of the Russians and the devastation wrought by a world war -- to a person who started two small-scale wars without genocidal intent.  If you knew more about Hitler, I doubt you would find the comparison an apt one.  One word: KRISTALLNACHT.

If Bush is still in office on January 31, 2009, then I'll gladly retract my objections, and I'll be right there with you calling George W. Bush a fascist dictator.  Until he repeals the 22nd Amendment or otherwise disrupts the 2008 elections, the comparison is outrageous.  I'm done discussing this point until then.

[Caleb]

Who funded Hitler?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1312540,00.html

[tracysaboe]

Central Banking. And Taxes.

Tracy

[KBCraig]

The following reactions are possible (and more that I don't even list)
( . . . )
The person's reaction is up to him.

Know your audience.

Exactly!

Going back to the evangelism analogy: who has worn more souls to Christ: Billy Graham, or Fred Phelps?

Loving persuasion is the basis for the Jesus/Ghandi/MLK model. While their messages may have angered people who were guilty, they themselves did not engage in insults.

Pissing people off is never a good first step when you hope to convert them to your way of thinking.

Kevin

[Braddogg]

Exactly.  "You'rea sinner, an God still loves you" is better than :GOD HATES FAGS."

[Caleb]

http://www.livingwaters.com/listenwatch.shtml  For you, Kevin.    It's a third way.  Billy Graham vs. Fred Phelps is a comparison between two extremes.  There ARE people who use a third way.

So ... if I was living in NAZI Germany, would it be inappropriate to comment on how bad Hitler was?  After all, he was pretty popular.  We would catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, right?  We have to modify our message to attract the most amount of people.... right?

For the record, I created the freakin' flyer, and I sometimes disagree with it.  I mean, Bush hasn't yet resorted to genocide.  But Hitler did more than just genocide, and the parallels between Hitler and Bush - sans genocide - are pretty scary. 

Would you guys get off my back if the flyer had read "Mussolini had a revenue department too"?

[Lloyd Danforth]

I have always thought that comparing relative, pikers to Hitler has always been rediculous and used only for it's emotional reaction. I didn't like it when G. Bush I said 'Saddam was worse than Hitler' and I don't think it applies to his idiot son.

Once again, if preaching to, and,  only caring about reaching your very small quoir, is what is important to you, then you can keep on using terms like seccession and Hitler lke.

If you want to reach those who, maybe, are  less radical than thou, but, questioning the legitimacy of much of what the government does,  you will have to tone it down.

[mvpel]

So ... if I was living in NAZI Germany, would it be inappropriate to comment on how bad Hitler was?  After all, he was pretty popular.  We would catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, right?  We have to modify our message to attract the most amount of people.... right?

The militant Muslims who attacked America repeatedly leading up to their devastating blow in 9/11, those militant Muslims who Bush is trying to combat, have already been engaging in genocide in Sudan (most recently) and various other places around the world going back 1400 years.

You're focused on the various faults of George Bush and his administration when there's militant Muslims out there sawing peoples' heads off as they writhe and moan in agony, and launching rockets into elementary schools, and I just don't get why you don't seem to see how ridiculous that is.

Have you ever seen one of the various head-sawing videos that various Islamic websites pass around like Pokemon cards?  It scars your psyche, even if you only witness two seconds of it, hear only one sick orgasmic shout of "Allahu akbar!" on the soundtrack.

It's kind of like bitching about Stalin's rationing policies when Hitler's army is in the process of slaughtering and starving 30 million Russians.