RUSSELL FREED

[Dave Ridley]

<< Why do you get to give him a lecture?>>


well maybe because he's the only one here besides lauren who has done a more effective act of civil dis.  The rest of us aren't as qualified to lecture russell. 

However I do hope I will be forgiven if I at least join the analysis process.  Now that Russell is out it would be totally appropriate to brainstorm how this kind of thing can be done better.  You agree with that, right Russell ?

[Michael Fisher]

Russell,

After all of the celebrations calm down, we need to have a long talk about nonviolent noncooperation.

I'm sure you knew this lecture was coming! 

Why do you get to give him a lecture?

Did RK give you a lecture after you got arrested?

Because we're friends and friends usually trust each other's advice. I listened to all of you before and after my protests, because I trust you. Where else in the world will I find people like you? Such a search would be completely fruitless.

I don't know why you don't seem to like me, but... *shrug* Perhaps you believe I'm doing something wrong. Let me know and I'll see if I can fix it.

[Dreepa]

Because we're friends and friends usually trust each other's advice. I listened to all of you before and after my protests, because I trust you. Where else in the world will I find people like you? Such a search would be completely fruitless.

I don't know why you don't seem to like me, but... *shrug* Perhaps you believe I'm doing something wrong. Let me know and I'll see if I can fix it.

Where did I say I didn't like you?

I think there is a difference between 'lecturing' someone and giving someone advice.
You lecture a child.
You give advice to a friend.

[tracysaboe]

Michael is refering to the article about "overturning tables in the Temple" that was in the Keene Free Press.

Russel was speaking metephorically. But I guess even Metaphorically, Michael thinks it shouldn't have been said, because it's like he endorses violence.

And from a pragmatic point of view? He's probably right.

From a Christian point of view, only Jesus would have been capible of having the knowlege that the moneychanging wasn't for salvation and a temple of worship would have been God's house. Hence Jesus was really the only one capible of doing that with-out violating ZAP because he's God. So from a Christian perspective Russel shouldn't have used it either, because I guess it makes it like he's sort of equating himself with Jesus. (Well, and equating the IRS building with a Church  ) It's certainly not a metaphore I would have used. I suppose you could equate it with taking the Lord's name in vain. Which is a violation of one of the 10 commandments.

However, I know that none of that is what Russel meant.

But regardless Mike thinks it shouldn't have been said because of those sorts of possibile interpretations.

How'd I do Mike!   Do I win!

Tracy

[Braddogg]

Which is a violation of one of the 10 commandments.

As was sending that message on Shabbat

[tracysaboe]

Well. The Christians after Christ changed the Lord's day to the 1st day to comemorate Jesus resurection.

Hopefully Russel kept Sunday holy while he was in jail.

Tracy

[KBCraig]

Which is a violation of one of the 10 commandments.

As was sending that message on Shabbat

No. It was a violation of pharisaic law, something Jesus made a point of violating.

Sending an email message on Shabbat (or turning on a light switch, or striking a match) is no more a violation of God's commandments, than handing a flyer to an IRS employee is a violation of the U.S. Constitution.

In both cases, the enforcers of the law have stood the spirit of the law on its head.

Kevin

[Braddogg]

Well. The Christians after Christ changed the Lord's day to the 1st day to comemorate Jesus resurection.

Heh, this is a discussion for another thread   

[tracysaboe]

Well. The Christians after Christ changed the Lord's day to the 1st day to comemorate Jesus resurection.

Heh, this is a discussion for another thread   

Tracy

[Radical_Teen]

just wanted to say welcome home Russell!!!!!!!!!

[aries]

Which is a violation of one of the 10 commandments.

As was sending that message on Shabbat

No. It was a violation of pharisaic law, something Jesus made a point of violating.

Sending an email message on Shabbat (or turning on a light switch, or striking a match) is no more a violation of God's commandments, than handing a flyer to an IRS employee is a violation of the U.S. Constitution.

In both cases, the enforcers of the law have stood the spirit of the law on its head.

Kevin

I wonder how the argument that many christians use for obeying every single law the government passes stands up against the fact that Jesus, simply by proclaiming himself the Lord, broke the law. Render unto caesar... baloney.

[Russell Kanning]

Russel was speaking metephorically. But I guess even Metaphorically, Michael thinks it shouldn't have been said, because it's like he endorses violence.

From a Christian point of view, only Jesus would have been capible of having the knowlege that the moneychanging wasn't for salvation and a temple of worship would have been God's house.

I might someday turn over the tax collectors tables.

I don't think it would be wrong for a normal person to tip over the pharisee's tables.

[Russell Kanning]

Hopefully Russel kept Sunday holy while he was in jail.

You are kidding right?

[Russell Kanning]

No. It was a violation of pharisaic law, something Jesus made a point of violating.

Sending an email message on Shabbat (or turning on a light switch, or striking a match) is no more a violation of God's commandments, than handing a flyer to an IRS employee is a violation of the U.S. Constitution.

In both cases, the enforcers of the law have stood the spirit of the law on its head.

I totally agree with the kevmeister.

[Michael Fisher]

Michael is refering to the article about "overturning tables in the Temple" that was in the Keene Free Press.

Russel was speaking metephorically. But I guess even Metaphorically, Michael thinks it shouldn't have been said, because it's like he endorses violence.

And from a pragmatic point of view? He's probably right.

From a Christian point of view, only Jesus would have been capible of having the knowlege that the moneychanging wasn't for salvation and a temple of worship would have been God's house. Hence Jesus was really the only one capible of doing that with-out violating ZAP because he's God. So from a Christian perspective Russel shouldn't have used it either, because I guess it makes it like he's sort of equating himself with Jesus. (Well, and equating the IRS building with a Church  ) It's certainly not a metaphore I would have used. I suppose you could equate it with taking the Lord's name in vain. Which is a violation of one of the 10 commandments.

However, I know that none of that is what Russel meant.

But regardless Mike thinks it shouldn't have been said because of those sorts of possibile interpretations.

How'd I do Mike!   Do I win!

Tracy

Yep. What worries me even more so is the violation of nonviolent principles.

I wonder how the argument that many christians use for obeying every single law the government passes stands up against the fact that Jesus, simply by proclaiming himself the Lord, broke the law. Render unto caesar... baloney.

Christians are supposed to obey the law unless the law requires them to violate God's commandments, in which case open noncooperation is a duty. Most Christians that I know understand the distinction.

I might someday turn over the tax collectors tables.

I don't think it would be wrong for a normal person to tip over the pharisee's tables.

Look, I'm not perfect by any stretch, but I must gently rebuke you as I am required to do. Some things are quite serious, and this is one of them. What you are talking about doing is not a violation of ZAP, but it will be seen as aggression by many people. However, your words are a blatant violation of Jesus' second commandment as well as the nonviolent methods promoted by Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

"You will know them by their fruits. ... A good tree cannot produce bad fruit..."
-Matthew 7:12-14,16,18

"Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

"The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart."
-Luke 6:36,45

"Use truth as your anvil, nonviolence as your hammer and anything that does not stand the test when it is brought to the anvil of truth and hammered with nonviolence, reject it."
-Gandhi

"Man must evolve for all human conflict a method which rejects revenge, aggression and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

"Return good for evil."
-Gandhi's guiding principle.

"Nonviolence is the law of the human race and is infinitely greater than and superior to brute force."
-Gandhi

"Disobedience to be civil has to be open and nonviolent."
-Gandhi

"Disobedience to be civil implies discipline, thought, care, attention."
-Gandhi

"True nonviolence should mean a complete freedom from ill-will and anger and hate and an overflowing love for all."
-Gandhi

"Nonviolent action without the cooperation of the heart and the head cannot produce the intended result."
-Gandhi

"In the dictionary of Satyagraha, there is no enemy."
-Gandhi

"Love is the only force capable of transforming an enemy into a friend."
-Martin Luther King, Jr.

"A genuine Satyagraha should never excite contempt in the opponent even when it fails to command regard or respect."
-Gandhi

"Disobedience that is wholly civil should never provoke retaliation."
-Gandhi

http://underground.soulawakenings.com/tiki-index.php?page=Readings+for+Civil+Disobedience