Anybody want to melt some pennies?

[Pat McCotter]

question:  I'm considering buying more nickels and pennies from banks in rolls or boxes.  The melting thing is a total loser but these things do seem to be valuable trade items.  I'd like to get a feel for how you guys value them first.

If I offered to pay you for something in rolls or boxes of nickels tomorrow, would you agree to it (at face value)?   Would you pay me face value cash for a box of nickels ($100)?  Pennies ($25)?    I'm trying to get a feel for how liquid these are at face value if I end up overpurchasing and decide I need the fast cash more than the collector value.   If the banks won't easily take them back I want to find out what my other options are.   I haven't checked into the banks yet when it comes to returns...from what I know it seems that bank policy varies.

Apparently some want them rolled, some will count them for you, some will charge you, some want you to go away.

At any rate, nickels and pennies are now, in effect, copper/nickel/zink bullion rounds backed by their metal content and with the occasional numismatic coin showing up.  Its' worth thinking about. 

How about this, Dave?
http://www.coinstar.com/us/webdocs/A1

[error]

How about this, Dave?
http://www.coinstar.com/us/webdocs/A1

Most banks will do the same thing for free, if you have an open account with them, and sometimes even if you don't.

[Dave Ridley]

ok this is cool

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZjetcocopper

an ebay seller melts copper, nickel and lead into bullion himself apparently.  all 15 or so of his items for sale appear to have gone fast - but not at bullion pricing.  He's consistently getting about 1000% of their melt value after the bidding is over with.   He puts his "jetco" brand name on the bars and a serial number.   Apparently he's got a near corner on the market right now...but with that kind of markup over spot expect competition eventually.

[Patriot]

So how, then, does the government prove that one melted pennies?
"Your honor, the defendant had in his possession chunks of copper in his pocket, therefore he melted pennies..."
Or,
"Your honor, we set up a sting operation at the cost of $4,000, and we videotaped the defendant melting a sum of $4 of pennies in his garage"

p.s. A buddy of mine got busted for counterfeiting pennies... seems he had the head's and tails on the wrong side...

[eques]

If somebody was melting pennies down for copper in order to make a serious profit, they'd do far more than 400 pennies.

I don't know if copper from different mines has varying fractions of particular isotopes, nor if the copper used in coinage has some sort of isotope "signature" (nor do I know if it's really possible, though I think it could be).

Other than that, without some sort of paper trail showing how you acquired the copper, especially if you were found to be in possession of smelting equipment, suspicions might be aroused, but you would most likely have to be caught in the act to be prosecuted.

[41mag]

So how, then, does the government prove that one melted pennies?
"Your honor, the defendant had in his possession chunks of copper in his pocket, therefore he melted pennies..."
Or,
"Your honor, we set up a sting operation at the cost of $4,000, and we videotaped the defendant melting a sum of $4 of pennies in his garage"

Even the pre-zinc pennies were not pure copper.  I suppose that if they checked the alloy, and found it to be the same alloy used in minting pennies, it would be probable cause.  I don't think they would be able to prove you had melted them down without catching you in the act.

Thay being said, I suspect in reality the burden of proof would be on you.

[eques]

So how, then, does the government prove that one melted pennies?
"Your honor, the defendant had in his possession chunks of copper in his pocket, therefore he melted pennies..."
Or,
"Your honor, we set up a sting operation at the cost of $4,000, and we videotaped the defendant melting a sum of $4 of pennies in his garage"

Even the pre-zinc pennies were not pure copper.  I suppose that if they checked the alloy, and found it to be the same alloy used in minting pennies, it would be probable cause.  I don't think they would be able to prove you had melted them down without catching you in the act.

Thay being said, I suspect in reality the burden of proof would be on you.

If I was going to be melting pennies down, I'd want to make sure I ended up with as pure a sample of copper as I could, whatever that might mean.

For post-1982 pennies, scoring them and dumping them in hydrochloric acid will do pretty well (though if you wanted to recover the zinc, that'd end up being another question altogether unless you can sell zinc chloride).

[money dollars]

How about using the pennies to make a shape charge liner for a EFP?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/bullets2-shaped-charge.htm

Shaped Charge
Explosively Formed Projectile (EFP)
Explosive-Formed Penetrating (EFP) Warhead
Explosively Formed Penetrator (EFP) Warhead
Explosively Forged Penetrator (EFP) Warhead

A shaped charge is a concave metal hemisphere or cone (known as a liner) backed by a high explosive, all in a steel or aluminum casing. When the high explosive is detonated, the metal liner is compressed and squeezed forward, forming a jet whose tip may travel as fast as 10 kilometers per second.

Conventional shaped charges are constructed with a charge case, a hollow conical liner within the case, and a high explosive material positioned between the liner and case. A detonator is activated to initiate the explosive material to generate a detonation wave. This wave collapses the liner and a high velocity metallic jet is formed. The jet pierces the well casing and geologic formation, and a slow moving slug is simultaneously formed. The jet properties depend on the charge shape, the energy released, and the liner mass and composition. A Monroe-effect shaped-charge warhead can be expected to penetrate armor equal to 150-250% of the warhead diameter.

Shaped Charge Theory
Hydrodynamic penetration is a complex mechanism which begins to appear when the strike velocity exceeds a critical value, typically about 1,150m/s for current penetrators against rolled homogenous armor (RHA) targets. Full hydrodynamic behavior does not occur until the strike velocity reaches several kilometers per second, such as occurs with shaped charge munitions. At strike velocities less than about 1,150m/s penetration of metal armor occurs mainly through the mechanism of plastic deformation. A typical penetrator achieves a strike velocity around 1,500m/s to 1,700m/s, depending on range, and therefore target effects generally exhibit both hydrodynamic behaviour and plastic deformation.

A number of models of varying degrees of complexity have been developed to predict long rod penetrator performance. A common feature that emerges from these models is the importance of a high strike velocity to exploit more fully the hydrodynamic penetration mechanism, which, in turn, is further improved by the use of longer penetrators having higher densities relative to the target material density. This is amply supported by experimental work.

Shaped charge is indeed an extraordinary phenomenon that is beyond the scale of normal physics, which explains why its fundamental theoretical mechanism is by no means fully understood.

The shaped charge jet tip reaches 10 kms-l some 40 ?s after detonation, giving a cone tip acceleration of about 25 million g. At this acceleration the tip would reach the speed of light, were this possible, in around 1.5 seconds. But of course, it reaches a terminal velocity after only 40 millionths of a second. It is difficult to think of any other terrestrial event as fast as a shaped charge jet tip. The jet tail has a velocity of 2-5 kms-l and so the jet stretches out to a length of about 8 cone diameters (CDs) before particulation occurs. The stretching occurs at a high strain rate, requiring the cone material to have excellent dynamic ductility at temperatures up to about 450?C. On reaching a target, the pressure developed between the jet tip and the forming crater can be as high as 10 Mbar (10 million atmospheres), several times the highest pressure predicted in the Earth's core.

It is universally agreed that conical liner collapse and target penetration both occur by hydrodynamic flow. However, it has been established by X-ray diffraction that the jet is solid metal and not molten. Additionally, best estimates of jet temperature by incandescence colour suggest a mean value of about 450?C, and copper melts at 1083?C at atmospheric pressure. So the following conundrum is the first confusion: The jet appears to behave like a fluid, and yet it is known to be a solid. One recent theory that would help explain this is that the jet has a molten core but with a solid outer sheath.

The hypervelocity hydrodynamic impact (unlike lower speed KE penetration) results in a mushroom head penetration, such that the hole diameter is larger than the penetrator diameter. The dynamic compressive yield stress of the target is exceeded by a factor of at least one thousand times, so that only the densities of the target and jet materials are important. Both materials flow as if they were fluids and the penetration event can be modelled quite accurately using the Bernoulli equation for incompressible flow to give the well known hydrodynamic penetration equation.

Shaped Charge History
Charles Edward Munroe was the inventor of "The Monroe Effect" in explosives in 1885. He noted that a high explosive with a cavity facing a target left an indentation. The earliest known reference to the effect appears to be 1792, and there is some indication that mining engineers may have exploited the phenomenon over 150 years ago. The Monroe Effect was rediscovered by Von Neumann in 1911, but no practical applications were developed.

Shaped charges were first developed after World War I to penetrate tanks and other armored equipment. A cylindrical charge that lies flat against the armour and is being initiated in one end gives a directed detonation effect so that a hole is created at the point of contact is Generation I. If that charge is equipped with a conical hole the force of the explosion will be channeled further and increases the chances for a penetration it is Generation II. The most common type of hollow charge munitions is the jet creating hollow charge, also called Hollow Charge Generation III. The other type of hollow charge munition is the projectile creating munition. It is referred to as Genetration IV. Gen I and Gen II (developed during the WW II) are predecessors to Gen III and IV but they are no longer in use in any munitions.

The "shaped charge" was introduced to warfare as an anti-tank device in World War II after its re-discovery in the late 1930s. In 1935, Henry Mohaupt, a chemical engineer [and a machine gunner in the Swiss Army] established a laboratory in Zurich to develop an effective anti-tank weapon that could be used by infantry soldiers. Henry Mohaupt was the inventor of the lined shaped charge. Other accounts mention earlier work by R.W. Wood of the John Hopkins University Physics Department as the discoverer of the metal liner principle. After the war started, Mohaupt came to the United States, and in October 1940 he took over direction of the bazooka project.

In January, 1945, Ramsey C. Armstrong founded Well Explosives Company, Inc. in Fort Worth, Texas. He decided to pursue perforating technology related to the bazooka, an anti-tank device based on the shaped charge concept. Armstrong contacted Mohaupt in Washington, DC, where he was then working for the Navy, and in October of 1946, Mohaupt and his wife made the long drive from Washington to Fort Worth.

The Beehive Charge was a six in diameter shaped charge demolition/sabotage device devised by the UK in October 1941.

The RPG-43 Ruchnaya Protivotankovaya Granata ("Hand Anti-Tank Grenade") Model 1943 was Russia's first shaped charge grenade for anti-tank purposes. It replaced the RPG-40 which was an ordinary stick grenade with an oversized high explosive head. It had an impact fuze with a 95mm diameter warhead containing 612g of TNT which could penetrate 75mm of armor.

In 1965 a Russian scientist proposed that a shaped charge originally developed for piercing thick steel armor be adapted to the task of accelerating shock waves. The resulting device, looking little like a wind tunnel, is called a Voitenko compressor. The Voitenko compressor initially separates a test gas from a shaped charge with a malleable steel plate. When the shaped charge detonates, most of its energy is focused on the steel plate, driving it forward and pushing the test gas ahead of it. Ames translated this idea into a self-destroying shock tube. A 66-pound shaped charge accelerated the gas in a 3-cm glass-walled tube 2 meters in length. The velocity of the resulting shock wave was a phenomenal 220 000 feet per second. The apparatus exposed to the detonation was, of course, completely destroyed, but not before useful data were extracted.

The US Army Ballistic Research Laboratory, an ARL predecessor organization, made several important contributions to the development of shaped-charge technology. BRL scientists delineated the penetration mechanics of the stretching, high-velocity jet of metal that is formed by the warhead, thus making it possible to design relatively light, inexpensive weapons to defend against tanks. Guided missiles, such as Shillelagh, TOW, Dragon, and Hellfire, exploited the high penetration capability of such warheads with accurate fire at long range. Further contributions included the demonstration of tandem shaped-charge warheads and the application of advanced liner material technology that increased jet velocity and ductility and provided enhanced lethality within existing weapon system envelopes.

Early work on shaped charges showed that a range of alternative constructions, including modifying the angle of the liner or varying its thickness, would result in a faster and longer metal jet. These research and development efforts to maximize penetration capabilities were based largely on trial and error. It was not until the 1970s that modeling codes could predict with any accuracy how a shaped charge would behave. While the concept of a metal surface being squeezed forward may seem relatively straightforward, the physics of shaped charges is very complex and even today is not completely understood.

In early 1997, Lawrence Livermore successfully tested a shaped charge that penetrated 3.4 meters of high-strength armor steel. The largest diameter precision shaped charge ever built produced a jet of molybdenum that traveled several meters through the air before making its way through successive blocks of steel.

A shaped charge, by design, focuses all of its energy on a single line, making it very accurate and controllable. When size is added to that accuracy, the effect can be dramatic. The success of this demonstration by Lawrence Livermore at the Nevada Test Site's Big Explosives Experimental Facility would not have been possible without the combination of reliable hydrodynamic codes and diagnostic tools that verify one another.

X-radiography produces shadowgraphs that provide experienced researchers with information about the jet's velocity, density, and mass distribution. The rotating-mirror framing camera, a kind of motion picture camera, can shoot millions of frames in a second. A typical shaped-charge jet-formation experiment lasts less than 30 microseconds, and the framing camera is usually set to record an image about once every microsecond. The exposure time for the framing camera may be anywhere from 100 to 200 nanoseconds, or billionths of a second. The newest tool is the image-converter (IC) camera, which was developed at Livermore in the mid-1980s. A pulsed ruby laser is synchronized with the IC camera frames to provide illumination of the shaped charge. The electronic image tube that acts as the shutter for each image frame converts the photons of laser light reflected by the shaped charge to photoelectrons. These photoelectrons are accelerated by a high-voltage pulse onto a phosphor, where they are reconverted to photons that are then transmitted to the film. With exposure times of just 15 to 20 nanoseconds (up to ten times shorter than those of the framing camera) and a band-pass filter mounted on the camera to exclude extraneous light, the IC camera has supplied the first truly high-resolution images of the formation and early flight of a shaped-charge jet.

Shaped Charges in the Oil Industry
The most extensive use today of Shaped Charges is in the oil and gas industry, where they open up the rock around drilled wells. Shaped charges are used in the oil and gas industry and in other fields to pierce metal, concrete, and other solid materials. In an oil or gas well, a metallic casing is cemented to the borehole walls to maintain the borehole integrity. Shaped charges are incorporated in a hollow carrier gun or a strip positioned in the casing. The shaped charges are activated to pierce the well casing and the geologic formation at the hydrocarbon producing zone. The hydrocarbons enter the casing through such perforations and are transmitted to the well surface.

Unlike the ripping affect achieved by bulk cutters, shaped charges are intended to sever targets by jetcutting. Shaped charges utilize special housings that are designed to create a cavity or void between the explosive material and target wall. Employing a phenomenon known as the Monroe Effect, the shock wave produced at detonation accelerates and deforms the shaped housing into a high-velocity (24,000-27,000 fps) plasma jet within the void space. The formed jet is able to cut through steel targets of various thicknesses based upon the void shape and the ?stand-off? distance to the target wall. Because the ?cutting? efficiency of shaped charges is several times greater than that of bulk charges, they can often greatly reduce the net explosive weight needed to sever similar-sized targets.

Linear-shaped charges (LSC) have a void shaped into a chevron or inverted ?V? along its entire length, and they are designed to cut linearly through its target. Subcontractors use LSC?s on a wide range of decommissioing targets in many different configurations depending on cutting requriements.

Prior to perforation technology, wells were "open hole" or "shot hole" (barefoot) completions, sometimes employing liners. But the perforated casing completion was an important and necessary development as wells got deeper, and reservoir conditions became more and more complex. Gun perforators have been successfully used as a well completion method since at least 1927; the first patent was 1926, but it did not work. Early gun perforators were "bullet" devices, utilizing actual projectiles (usually steel bullets) to penetrate the well casing. The lined shaped charge perforator a/k/a the jet perforator or jet charge has displaced the old bullet perforators

Conical-shaped charges (CSC) have the cavity created in the shape of a cone designed to cut round holes and to penetrate deep into targets. Industry?s primary use of CSC?s is in the development of perforating guns; multiple CSC assemblies placed down boreholes and detonated to penetrate through the drill casing and into the surrounding geologic strata for the extraction of hydrocarbons. The use of steel charge cases instead of zinc cases eliminates the decrease in formation productivity and damage to completion components associated with the detonation by-products from zinc-based charges and reduces the cost for special completion fluids. The shaped charges are designed and arranged to assist in optimum orientation and deployed with a tubing-conveyed perforating system to provide an innovative, effective solution for perforating and increasing productivity in long horizontal intervals.

Demolition Shaped Charge
The Charge, Demolition, Shaped, 150mm is designed to make holes of considerable depth and breadth in a variety of materials. It consists of a 150mm diameter conical steel liner with three removable legs which provide a standoff of 145mm. The Charge, Demolition, Shaped, 150mm contains 3.1 kg of HE and its total mass is 4.9 kg.

Target Material    Depth of Hole (mm)
Armour Plate      178
Mild Steel         250
Hard Rock (Granite)   380
Reinforced concrete   760
Soft rock (Sandstone) 910
Shaped Charges and Explosived Disposal
Shaped Charges are used as a remote clearing device.

COPPER CONE - Using the jet-forming copper cone, the charge produces a jet which may be used to pierce holes, typically through 75mm (3 in) of mild steel or greater thicknesses of concrete or brickwork. It may be used for causing the detonation or deflagration of steel-cased ammunition without any risk of inadvertent disturbance of the target before firing. The usual explosive load is between 20 and 50g.

COPPER EXPLOSIVELY-FORMED PROJECTILE - A wide angled copper cone, essentially a slightly domed disc, generates an explosively-formed projectile (EFP) which may be used to penetrate robust targets at much greater ranges than the jet-forming cone. This enables the VULCAN to be used as a de-armer and disruptor device. It punctures 10mm thick steel at a range of at least 1,500mm.

[mvpel]

It's not illegal to melt pennies, per se.

It's only illegal if you're doing it with the intent to defraud.

[Pat McCotter]

It's not illegal to melt pennies, per se.

It's only illegal if you're doing it with the intent to defraud.

Sorry, Mike, you are behind in your reading.

New rules outlaw melting pennies, nickels for profit
Posted 12/14/2006 12:01 AM ET

By Barbara Hagenbaugh, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON ? People who melt pennies or nickels to profit from the jump in metals prices could face jail time and pay thousands of dollars in fines, according to new rules out Thursday.
Soaring metals prices mean that the value of the metal in pennies and nickels exceeds the face value of the coins. Based on current metals prices, the value of the metal in a nickel is now 6.99 cents, while the penny's metal is worth 1.12 cents, according to the U.S. Mint.

That has piqued concern among government officials that people will melt the coins to sell the metal, leading to potential shortages of pennies and nickels.

"The nation needs its coinage for commerce," U.S. Mint director Ed Moy said in a statement. "We don't want to see our pennies and nickels melted down so a few individuals can take advantage of the American taxpayer. Replacing these coins would be an enormous cost to taxpayers."

There have been no specific reports of people melting coins for the metal, Mint spokeswoman Becky Bailey says. But the agency has received a number of questions in recent months from the public about the legality of melting the coins, and officials have heard some anecdotal reports of companies considering selling the metal from pennies and nickels, she says.

Under the new rules, it is illegal to melt pennies and nickels. It is also illegal to export the coins for melting. Travelers may legally carry up to $5 in 1- and 5-cent coins out of the USA or ship $100 of the coins abroad "for legitimate coinage and numismatic purposes."

Violators could spend up to five years in prison and pay as much as $10,000 in fines. Plus, the government will confiscate any coins or metal used in melting schemes.

The rules are similar to those enacted in the 1960s and 1970s, when metals prices also rose, the Mint said. Ongoing regulations make it illegal to alter coins with an intent to commit fraud. Before today's new regulations, it was not illegal to melt coins.

Metals prices have skyrocketed worldwide in recent years in response to rising demand, particularly in rapidly growing China and India. Prices for zinc, which accounts for nearly all of the metal in the penny, have risen 134% this year, according to the London Metal Exchange. Even accounting for a recent decline, the price of copper is up 50% since the start of 2006. Nickels are produced from 75% copper and 25% nickel.

Although the Mint's new rules are immediately going into effect, the Mint will take comments from the public for a month.

The government has changed the composition of coins in response to rising metal prices. The penny, which was pure copper when it was introduced in 1793, was last changed in 1982.

[mvpel]

Looks like I'm behind by negative three and a quarter hours...

Posted 12/14/2006 12:01 AM ET

I wonder what's the statutory authority for these new regulations.

[Pat McCotter]

Looks like I'm behind by negative three and a quarter hours...

Posted 12/14/2006 12:01 AM ET

I wonder what's the statutory authority for these new regulations.

31 U.S.C. 5111 (d)

(d)
(1) The Secretary may prohibit or limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of United States coins when the Secretary decides the prohibition or limitation is necessary to protect the coinage of the United States.
(2) A person knowingly violating an order or license issued or regulation prescribed under paragraph (1) of this subsection, shall be fined not more than $10,000, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(3) Coins exported, melted, or treated in violation of an order or license issued or regulation prescribed, and metal resulting from the melting or treatment, shall be forfeited to the United States Government. The powers of the Secretary and the remedies available to enforce forfeitures are those provided in part II of subchapter C of chapter 75 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954 [1] (26 U.S.C. 7321 et seq.).

[PowerPenguin]

You can get some older pennies here: http://www.apmex.com/Category/378/Cents_by_the_Roll.aspx.

They are pretty cheap for what they are and they should be of high copper content, unlike the mostly zinc pieces of shit from 1982(?) to the present.