But seriously . . . atheism?

[Raineyrocks]

What kind of "true character" is depicted in an individual who is suffering from starvation?  How does this even relate to the massive suffering of victims of natural disasters, war, malicious/negligent state governments?

And the witnesses?  Say what?  Others are suffering for my benefit?  Sorry, I won't have it.

Great undisputable (to me anyway) points Eques, Caleb, and Rocketman.  Michael you give, which of course is your right to, some of the same old answers that most pastors give and they still don't make sense; unless I were to just say okay ,(which many followers do), because maybe you've read the bible more than me and know something that I don't. Logically and morally in my own heart and mind those answers make no sense and are (in my opinion) borderline, sadomasochism, taking Eques's answer copied above as an example.  I wouldn't want anyone to suffer so I could be a witness and grow!

On the other hand there are beautiful examples of human compassion and goodness that do give me hope. Did god create a schizophrenic, (which means if we were created in his image is he schizo?) hoard of human beings? Good, bad, good, bad all the time, even reading the old testament and then the new testament it seems completely opposite of each other.  If there is a god I find it most difficult to believe that the bible was divinely written, there are so many contradictions. Right down to one of the ten commandments "thou shalt not kill", okay no exclusions, exceptions,ect. Then why did god command people in the old testament to sacrifice sheep?  That's just one example of where god commanded people to kill in the bible, even if it is just a sheep, there are no exceptions to the commandment thou shalt not kill, right?
I've also heard the, "God is like our parent and gave us the bible so we know how to live", he did? Thanks but no thanks, I wouldn't stick my kids somewhere and give them a book like that as an example of how to live, some parts are great others are extremely violent and totally confusing.
Sorry for going off track here about the bible but it refers to Rocketman's statement of us being on our own.
So again, I just don't know and probraly never will.

[Braddogg]

At some point, for the Christian, it comes down to this: Shut up and obey, because it is moral to do so, just as it is moral for the slave to obey his master.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.  Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free.- Eph. 6:5-8

Heh, the bit about suffering helping us grow, Mike, is a great argument for supporting slavery, like Paul does.

[Pat K]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

[KurtDaBear]

Kid decides someone forgot to tell him and decides for himself that concept of God and Jesus is absurd and that, if a creature such as the Christian God did exist, he wouldn't be worthy of worship.

Not everyone believes in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim notion of God.  There are many other gods out there.

Joe

Good point.  I tend to speak/write about religion from the Christian perspective because that's my background, but I haven't found any other concept of a supreme being that fills the bill.  When it gets down to things like "God (or what-have-you) is was and ever shall be" or that he's the "uncaused cause," I just cut the philosophical debate at "universe" and skip the god step.

Many religions have laudable concepts contained within them--the Golden Rule, for instance is nearly universal; and many of the more fatalistic, non-cause-and-effect aspects of Oriental religions and philosophies are beneficial in broadening one's world view.  Also, many great works of art, architecture, music. etc., owe their existence to religion, as gifts to gods from the artists.

[Raineyrocks]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

Good questions!  Also if god created man in his image then he has to be both good and evil since we have both attributes, wouldn't you think so?  Yet I believe in the bible there are alot of verses that state god is only good.   The answer I've gotten of this from many pastors is, "but satan was really good, god's favorite then he got vain and wanted god's glory". Okay still who created satan? So then where did satan's evil come from?
If god knew before hand that all of this suffering was going to come out of his creations, why do it in the first place?  If I had the ability to look into one of my children's futures and the only thing I saw was horrible things happening to them, should I even have that kid?

As I think I've said before it is easier for me to believe there is a god when I look at mountains, trees, rivers, our own amazing human bodies, ect. if I leave the bible and religions out of it.

[Raineyrocks]

At some point, for the Christian, it comes down to this: Shut up and obey, because it is moral to do so, just as it is moral for the slave to obey his master.

I know a couple of women that are in totally unhappy marraiges but stay in them because the bible or their pastors say they should.  One of these women said she liked George Bush because he was anti-abortion and I said to her, "oh okay, while bush orders the mass murdering of Iraqi children that's okay as long as he's against an american fetus being destroyed."  Well that shut her up on the subject with me permanently.  It's like where are your brains woman to even make a statement like that in the first place, you know what I mean Braddogg?
Hey Braddogg, do you like my avatar for the day?  I thought it was so funny, I hope I don't get any "I have offended someone posts".  It is just a doe with a pickle around it, after all! 

[eques]

It is just a doe with a pickle around it, after all! 

That looks like a buck, rainey!!!

[Raineyrocks]

It is just a doe with a pickle around it, after all! 

That looks like a buck, rainey!!!

Ahh shit, there goes all the fun!  So let's see it is a buck doe, hmm doesn't sound as funny.  Maybe it's really a doe that had a sex change operation, yeah that's the ticket, works for me.

[eques]

A dillbuck!



Yeah, the doe had a sex change operation and is undergoing buck-hormone therapy....

[Raineyrocks]

 Soon to be on the Jerry Springer, oops I mean the Deary Springer, show too!  That's why shim (she/him)  is hiding in a pickle because the hormone therapy isn't quite done yet!

[KurtDaBear]

I come to this discussion late and philosophically deficient

My brother says if god put us here it was his way of entertaining himself watching and playing a videogame called "us".

That's as good an explanation as any of them. 

[Braddogg]

At some point, for the Christian, it comes down to this: Shut up and obey, because it is moral to do so, just as it is moral for the slave to obey his master.

It's like where are your brains woman to even make a statement like that in the first place, you know what I mean Braddogg?

Bingo.  To steal Michael Savage's line, "Christianity is a mental disorder."

Hey Braddogg, do you like my avatar for the day?  I thought it was so funny, I hope I don't get any "I have offended someone posts".  It is just a doe with a pickle around it, after all! 

I LOVE that avatar!  Great pun 

[erich]

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

Why do you  have a problem with a malevolent God?  The Hebrews certainly had a sense of a "vengeful", "jealous", "wrathful" God.  They depended on this to get into the Promised Land.  From the point of view of the earlier inhabitants of the area, God (had they thought about God) would have been visiting great evils on them.  And the Christians who say that God will utterly destroy those not "saved" seem to have the same sense of a violent, judgmental God.  And so they should: New Covenant, same God.

Are you not sure that the "goodness" of God is that God offers the opportunity to understand and learn, and that God has been "good" to you if you have even made it this far in existence.  Your sperm was competing with millions, remember, so you were luckier than a lottery winner just to have developed from the one embryo out of the hundreds of millions that could have developed.

Can one not believe that God is worthy of worship in order to understand how to be in God's good graces, and because one sees God as a true and best expression of reality, and because one feels compassion for their fellow humans and wants to show the fellow humans this superior model of reality, human function, and survival?  Maybe even because God rewards groups of faithful people in expanded ways than the ways in which God rewards mere faithful individuals?

One other provocative question:  Does evil have any meaning outside of the human point of view?  Humans may be the pinnacle of creation, insofar as consciousness and reason are wonderful, but we are not all there is.  I question that there is any notion of evil if a supernova blasts uninhabited solar systems to smithereens.  I even question (though less confident about this) that nonhuman animals really think about evil as some sort of recognizable force in their lives.  Yes, they avoid pain and learn coping strategies, but I do not see evidence that they think about evil.

[eques]

I think that, at some point, all of this becomes mental dolphin flogging.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

Why do you  have a problem with a malevolent God?  The Hebrews certainly had a sense of a "vengeful", "jealous", "wrathful" God.  They depended on this to get into the Promised Land.  From the point of view of the earlier inhabitants of the area, God (had they thought about God) would have been visiting great evils on them.  And the Christians who say that God will utterly destroy those not "saved" seem to have the same sense of a violent, judgmental God.  And so they should: New Covenant, same God.

Well, you weren't asking me, but I'll bite anyway.

I think that the concepts of god in ancient mythical literature are more a reflection of the culture at the time than any true insight into the nature of god.  God was believed to be brutish, harsh, and whimsical because the overall understanding of the world fit that belief.  There wasn't much change in that understanding even a few hundred years later when many of the "New Testament" books were written.

Taking into account what we know of human history, the omnipotent, omnibenevolent god is a fairly recent invention.  I think this speaks to the greater understanding of the world.  It exposes that human beings have begun to understand that a storm is a conglomeration of natural events and not retribution or reward for those subjected to it.

Remember, just because something is "old" or "new" does not mean that it is better.

Are you not sure that the "goodness" of God is that God offers the opportunity to understand and learn, and that God has been "good" to you if you have even made it this far in existence.  Your sperm was competing with millions, remember, so you were luckier than a lottery winner just to have developed from the one embryo out of the hundreds of millions that could have developed.

I'm not sure that it even makes sense to refer to the sperm that conjoined with the egg in my mother's womb as "my sperm."  That is to say, I don't think there was a "me" before my particular genetic code was spliced, and that "me" wasn't really "me" until the years of experience and environment came up to today to where I would recognize myself as "me."

Then again, I consider the materialistic explanation of the emergence of consciousness to be appropriate, so I hardly think that everybody will agree with me on this, anyway.

Can one not believe that God is worthy of worship in order to understand how to be in God's good graces, and because one sees God as a true and best expression of reality, and because one feels compassion for their fellow humans and wants to show the fellow humans this superior model of reality, human function, and survival?  Maybe even because God rewards groups of faithful people in expanded ways than the ways in which God rewards mere faithful individuals?

I guess that depends on whether you believe God intervenes in our every-day, every-second life, or if there is only a reward in the afterlife.

Me?  Feh.  I don't believe that there is a God... and I'll admit up front that I've pretty much closed my mind to the idea... and, despite how much I talked about it earlier in this thread, I don't much care to actually convert anybody else to my viewpoint.

I think that compassion for your fellow human being is far better backed up by caring for their physical needs before you care for their "spiritual" needs, if you're going to go that route.  Words are cheap.  Sandwiches force you to dig into your pocket.

One other provocative question:  Does evil have any meaning outside of the human point of view?  Humans may be the pinnacle of creation, insofar as consciousness and reason are wonderful, but we are not all there is.  I question that there is any notion of evil if a supernova blasts uninhabited solar systems to smithereens.  I even question (though less confident about this) that nonhuman animals really think about evil as some sort of recognizable force in their lives.  Yes, they avoid pain and learn coping strategies, but I do not see evidence that they think about evil.

In the Taoist tradition (somebody may correct me if I'm wrong), evil committed by humans isn't so much "bad" as it is "stupid."  If you think about this a little, you can see how that resonates--if somebody steals from another person, in the grand scheme of societal living, that's just a stupid thing to do.  If people didn't do such stupid things to each other, there would be far less evil between humans.

Inasmuch as natural disasters occur, I don't think there are many in our culture who would consider that an act of evil, even if it were destruction on scales far beyond our comprehension.  "Natural" doesn't mean "good" and it doesn't mean "evil;" it just means "natural."

The lion attacking the antelope isn't evil any more than the antelope running from the lion is good.

As far as what animals are thinking, well... I won't venture to claim one way or the other until we can get a good idea of what other human beings are thinking. 

[Michael Fisher]

1) Theodicy.

Must I really go into detail about this again?

God created free will. Therefore, evil exists of a man's own free will. Human beings might take away the free will of others, but God will not do so until the apocalypse, when evil will be judged.

The deist/agnostic/atheist triple often feels a lot like the collection of groups that get stuffed into "libertarian"... There is nothing like making very similar decisions for different reasons to produce impassioned debates about very little measurable difference

Agreed. They all seem to create their own value systems to guide their actions, all of which are inherently flawed and exploitable by Satan, and all of which are only doomed to complete and utter failure. Trying to reinvent God's law of love from a man's perspective is futilely vain, proudly vain, and nevertheless a rampant practice that dominates the world today.

Very few people seem to understand that all humans are born with a flawed nature, and all are capable of equally great evil. There is nothing to separate me from the best hero or the worst genocidal murderer. I cannot look at someone else and say, "I am better than that person," or, "I am less evil than that person." For if you have hated or judged anyone, you have judged God, and you deserve eternal death in His view.

Gandhi's principles are a step in the right direction, but they are also completely inadequate. Inasmuch as they are a step in the right direction, they are hated by the world.