Do we need infiltrators?

[TackleTheWorld]

Regarding KBCraig and the need for him to quit his "immoral job":

Do you guys not see the advantage of having someone like him in our ranks?  He is privy to information that most of us aren't.  Rocketman is another example.  I had a libertarian-leaning philosophy professor in college.  He was much more thought-provoking than the boring left-leaning history teacher that found every excuse to promote the Democrat party.  We NEED people in these positions.  We shouldn't tell them to quit their jobs, we should encourage others to join them.  Think about it:  we are trying to elect PORCs to office.  Why would we not want PORCs in other gov't positions?  Just imagine what could be done from the inside.  Even you anarcho-types should be able to see the benefits of having Liberty-lovers infiltrate the government just as the gov't is trying to do to us.  We need our people in these places to help eventually render the jobs obsolete. 

Hey Error:  have you thought about the many positive things you could do with computers if you worked for the fedgov?  I know you would have to put up with a lot of B.S. but there would inevitably be chances for you to do things to help further the cause of freedom.  Especially if you put in enough time to work your way up the slime-infested ladder.  Just something to think about.

The government isn't going away any time soon.  We desperately need people in there who actually value the Constitution.  Just as having PORCs on a school board can help further the cause of liberty, so too can PORCs in the prison/college/"intelligence" industries.  I think Ayn Rand was way off when she failed to account for the greed of mankind.  Instead of bowing out of the system we should make sure it is completely infested with people who believe in liberty.  Then we will really be able to see some positive changes...


P.S.  Sorry to keep the thread off-topic.  Kudos to the Kannings for speaking on CNN about Mr. Brown's situation.

[TackleTheWorld]

I'd rather work from the other direction:
paying or enticing the pro-government people to act on the behalf of freedom.

If you take a naturally moral and tolerant freedom-lover then ask them to climb the "slime ladder", it makes them untrustworthy and ambivilent.

I say make the other guys turn into two-faced rats, not us.

[davek]

     Disclosure;  I am employed by a municipal government... so much for the good karma/post ratio...

     Defending liberty as a government employee requires neither deceit nor subterfuge.  In many cases, government employees have ample opportunity to exercise their discretion on various matters, such as whether to prosecute an offense or simply issue a warning.  In situations like that, a government employed Porc can do a world of good.    I have seen in this very forum stories of people who have been in the hands of the police, and who were saved from a great deal of grief by an officer electing to look the other way when finding a couple joints on them.  Where would they be had they fallen into the clutches of someone like Mr. Burridge?

     Bureaucrats are frequently called on to advise elected officials and to make recommendations.  Liberty minded people in these positions can be a powerful counterweight when the socialists come demanding "smart growth" and other such mischief, as well as being able to cultivate a greater understanding of the philosophy of liberty in the politicians with whom they interact.

     Bureacrats often have a role in creating new regulation.  Those who love freedom simply avoid proposing legislation and help put the brakes on other proposals.
 
     For better or for worse, we live in a world constructed by politicians responding rationally to the demands of those who put them and keep them in office.  That means until most people see the light, we will have public schools, building codes, business licenses, and a thousand other indignities.  If a community is determined to have a city planner, it is going to have a city planner whether I think its right or not.  As long as that is the case, my cause is better served by a planner who is working to discourage statism rather than by one who has no qualms about encouraging local government to bring about a socialist utopia.

     The real problem with government employees is the high degree of unionization and the evils that accompany that, but there are a lot of non-governmental employees who belong to unions, so that is a seperate issue.  Outside of that consideration, it seems obvious to me that a government employed Porc has the oportunity to do a fair bit of good, and more importantly, prevent a great deal of evil.

[Michael Fisher]

I like to do everything out in the open.

[error]

There are certainly a few situations where having a pro-liberty person in a strategic position within the government (federal, state or local) would be useful. But I could not be such a person. Working for someone else is, well, for other people.

[FTL_Ian]

If someone feels the desire to infiltrate and monkeywrench then I won't second guess them.  It sure isn't for me though.

Bureaucracy?  Yuck.

[Jim Johnson]

War is deception, Sun Tzu.  If one does not now what the other is really doing, one shall surely lose the battle, if not the war.

[error]

War is deception, Sun Su.  If one does not now what the other is really doing, one shall surely loose the battle, if not the war.

Buy Sun Tzu's The Art of War and a percentage of your purchase will support Free Talk Live!

[Jim Johnson]

The Art of War is Vital to the State!   
But the tactics of conflict are none the less necessary.

[KBCraig]

I like to do everything out in the open.

So do I.

That's why, at my "evil, immoral, federal government job", my politics are transparent and well known, as is my desire to move to New Hampshire, and why.

I've joked in the past that I'm "undercover", but the truth is that I'm as outspoken at work as I am here.

The thing that should hearten folks here, is how many of my co-workers share my disgust at how far the government has strayed from the Constitution. Those who lean the way I do (roughly a third of my colleagues) would gladly trade those jobs for a return to the Constitution.

Kevin

[d_goddard]

but the truth is that I'm as outspoken at work as I am here.

+1 Kevin

Honesty. And speaking openly about freedom, how much we cherish it, how it applies in places people often don't consider.
There are millions and millions of basically good people who, thanks to a statist education system and popular culture, simply have never considered what "Freedom" really is. These are not bad, stupid, or evil as individuals. They have simply never come into contact with certain critical ideas.

People employed by the State are the critical to winning hearts and minds, every bit as much are those in the media.

As it says at the end of the Philosophy of Liberty animation... "to THINK... to TALK... to ACT"

[error]

People employed by the State are the critical to winning hearts and minds, every bit as much are those in the media.

People employed by the State are my target audience. One of them, anyway.

[maineiac]

War is deception, Sun Su.  If one does not know what the other is really doing, one shall surely lose the battle, if not the war.

(my public service for the day!)

[Pat McCotter]

War is deception, Sun Su.  If one does not know what the other is really doing, one shall surely lose the battle, if not the war.

(my public service for the day!)

If I chose to lose would I be able to choose to loose?

[maineiac]

War is deception, Sun Su.  If one does not know what the other is really doing, one shall surely lose the battle, if not the war.

(my public service for the day!)

If I chose to lose would I be able to choose to loose?

Now, I don't know!