Big signs

[Quantrill]

No.  They had fake IDs and came down through Canada.  I'm not going to argue this point anymore, as my refusal to be assimilated has resulted in a lot of smiting.

I do not think that people are better depending on where they were born but there is no question that people not born in this country are not U.S. citizens.  Hence the need for border security.

Anyway, back on topic, big signs/billboards are a good idea and maybe we can work together to think of some slogans for said signs...

[Spencer]

This is a problem with a simple two-step solution (it should be done in order):

(1) Eliminate all government hand-outs (including corporate welfare); and

(2) Eliminate all laws regulating / restricting immigration / emigration.

Result = free flow of free people at no cost to taxpayers.

[earthhaven]

This is a problem with a simple two-step solution (it should be done in order):

(1) Eliminate all government hand-outs (including corporate welfare); and

(2) Eliminate all laws regulating / restricting immigration / emigration.

Result = free flow of free people at no cost to taxpayers.

Sounds good to me

[Quantrill]

Interestingly enough, I don't  have a problem with that either...

[Spencer]

Alright, now that we've reached common ground, let's get ourselves one big ass sign.

[KBCraig]

This is a problem with a simple two-step solution (it should be done in order):

(1) Eliminate all government hand-outs (including corporate welfare); and

(2) Eliminate all laws regulating / restricting immigration / emigration.

Result = free flow of free people at no cost to taxpayers.

Sounds good to me

Interestingly enough, I don't  have a problem with that either...

Alright, now that we've reached common ground, let's get ourselves one big ass sign.

Include me in that group, too.

People often misidentify the problem, and instead attack the symptom. When "illegals" are trespassing and trashing private property, or are dying in the desert, traditionalists want an iron curtain and landmines on the border. The right response is to make them answer this question: "Why are they walking through the middle of the desert and cutting across private land?"

The answer is simple: Because they can't just drive up the highway like everyone else!

Most traditionalist, "keep us safe from terrorists!"-type folks will accept a system that identifies everyone entering the country. It's pretty tough to ID people walking through the desert on foot, but relatively easy to ID them in their cars at manned border checkpoints. So, why not allow everyone in through the ports?

Throw in the argument to eliminate government welfare systems, and you've got a clincher.

Not saying that I think people should have to produce ID for crossing a national boundary, but this is a pretty good response for people who want to crack down on "illegal immigration".

Kevin

[Russell Kanning]

When I get busted for speeding I have to pay a hefty fine.  Why am I subject to the laws of this country yet "immigrants" are not?

This used to bother me .... now I live like an illegal immigrant. I am more free now. I have achieved "mexican status" as I like to call it.

[Russell Kanning]

I'm not going to argue this point anymore, as my refusal to be assimilated has resulted in a lot of smiting.

Hence the need for border security.

So you like government border security (political power) but you kinda are annoyed at smiting (social power). I look forward to a time where there are no borders, but plenty of social interaction and pressure.
Albert Nock had some good thoughts on the subject.

[lordmetroid]

Most traditionalist, "keep us safe from terrorists!"-type folks will accept a system that identifies everyone entering the country. It's pretty tough to ID people walking through the desert on foot, but relatively easy to ID them in their cars at manned border checkpoints. So, why not allow everyone in through the ports?

That is already in place. Fucking iris scan and fingerprinting as well as interrogation about everything to be let in as a simple tourist. I can only imagine what they do to people who want to immigrate.

[error]

Most traditionalist, "keep us safe from terrorists!"-type folks will accept a system that identifies everyone entering the country. It's pretty tough to ID people walking through the desert on foot, but relatively easy to ID them in their cars at manned border checkpoints. So, why not allow everyone in through the ports?

That is already in place. Fucking iris scan and fingerprinting as well as interrogation about everything to be let in as a simple tourist. I can only imagine what they do to people who want to immigrate.

For people who want to "immigrate" "legally" that's just the beginning. Then follows mountains of paperwork, and if the government loses a single sheet while you navigate the bureaucratic labyrinth, you get thrown out and have to start over. Or you get deported. Or you get thrown in jail. Or you get extraordinarily rendered to Syria and tortured for a year.

[Quantrill]

I'm not going to argue this point anymore, as my refusal to be assimilated has resulted in a lot of smiting.

Hence the need for border security.

So you like government border security (political power) but you kinda are annoyed at smiting (social power). I look forward to a time where there are no borders, but plenty of social interaction and pressure.
Albert Nock had some good thoughts on the subject.

I am annoyed at smiting because I thought Libertarians were supposed to be tolerant.  Name-calling and belittling those whose opinions differ from yours is not a very effective recruiting tactic.  I try very hard to be open-minded but I admit I find it very difficult to be 100% objective when someone is being confrontational (even on an internet chat board).  I understand that there are Libertarians, conservatives, Georgists, Randians, ANCAPS, independents, potheads, RLC-types, etc... and hopefully all these people think for themselves as opposed to blindly following the "party line" so to speak.  Why would the FSP work with NORML when many NORML members are not Libertarians?  Answer - They can work together for a common goal.  I look forward to a time where people refuse to be told what to think.  As it is, people mock "us" because "our" views are not in the mainstream.  Russell are you saying you should abandon your line of thinking due to peer pressure?  If all your neighbors are Socialists and belittle your opinions should you admit defeat and join them?  Of course not.  That's the reason for joining the FSP - to concentrate "liberty lovers" in one state where we can regain lost freedoms, not look down our collective noses at those who disagree with us...


P.S. (Again to Rusell)  While I seem to spend a lot of time disagreeing with some of your views I want you to know I like some of the things you are doing and if you dress like Don Quixote and joust with stuffed IRS agents PLEASE put a video on youtube or somewhere!

Cheers. 

[atr]

When I get busted for speeding I have to pay a hefty fine.  Why am I subject to the laws of this country yet "immigrants" are not?

Isn't it preferable to have less enforcement of unjust laws rather than more?

When you get busted for speeding, do you say to yourself "Gee, if only the government would steal money from everyone driving over the speed limit."?

or "I pay taxes so all tax evaders should be put in jail"?

etc.

Why begrudge someone his liberty?

[Quantrill]

Why begrudge someone his liberty?

I understand your point but I don't know that letting non-U.S. citizens tresspass on private property constitutes liberty.  I could just as easily have said "When I tresspass on private property I can be shot or arrested.  Why am I subject to this law if "immigrants" are not?"

If a law is unjust then I won't fault people for not obeying said law.

[atr]

Why begrudge someone his liberty?

I understand your point but I don't know that letting non-U.S. citizens tresspass on private property constitutes liberty.  I could just as easily have said "When I tresspass on private property I can be shot or arrested.  Why am I subject to this law if "immigrants" are not?"

I don't think that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) get a free pass at trespassing on private property. You have to keep in mind that most of them come here for work--in which case they enter private property with the express consent of the owner who's hiring them to pick crops or whatever.

If an immigrant rides in a car up I-5 across the border into San Diego, has he committed a true crime deserving of punishment? Has he trespassed on anyone's person or property? I would say no. If he commits a true crime, then certainly the wrongdoer is entitled to act in defense of his person or property.

[earthhaven]

I'm not going to argue this point anymore, as my refusal to be assimilated has resulted in a lot of smiting.

Hence the need for border security.

So you like government border security (political power) but you kinda are annoyed at smiting (social power). I look forward to a time where there are no borders, but plenty of social interaction and pressure.
Albert Nock had some good thoughts on the subject.

I am annoyed at smiting because I thought Libertarians were supposed to be tolerant.  Name-calling and belittling those whose opinions differ from yours is not a very effective recruiting tactic.  I try very hard to be open-minded but I admit I find it very difficult to be 100% objective when someone is being confrontational (even on an internet chat board).  I understand that there are Libertarians, conservatives, Georgists, Randians, ANCAPS, independents, potheads, RLC-types, etc... and hopefully all these people think for themselves as opposed to blindly following the "party line" so to speak.  Why would the FSP work with NORML when many NORML members are not Libertarians?  Answer - They can work together for a common goal.  I look forward to a time where people refuse to be told what to think.  As it is, people mock "us" because "our" views are not in the mainstream.  Russell are you saying you should abandon your line of thinking due to peer pressure?  If all your neighbors are Socialists and belittle your opinions should you admit defeat and join them?  Of course not.  That's the reason for joining the FSP - to concentrate "liberty lovers" in one state where we can regain lost freedoms, not look down our collective noses at those who disagree with us...


P.S. (Again to Rusell)  While I seem to spend a lot of time disagreeing with some of your views I want you to know I like some of the things you are doing and if you dress like Don Quixote and joust with stuffed IRS agents PLEASE put a video on youtube or somewhere!

Cheers. 

I don't think people should be told what to think. It's when they put their thoughts into policy and law that I have a problem.