Alternative fuels for heat/hot water

[MaineShark]

I'm going to cross-link to my post in the business forum, in case anyone here is looking, but doesn't view that forum.

I can set up many types of alternative-fuel systems for making heat and/or domestic hot water.  That can include typical fuels like oil and gas, but also integrating wood, pellet fuel, waste oils, cooking oils, solar, and many other possibilities, including combination systems that give you the option to run on a variety of fuels.  Whether you just want to save money on your hot water bill by using a solar system, or you want to heat your home with wood, or you want to heat a barn and melt the snow off your driveway using waste oil, or whatever else you can dream up, I'll find a way to make it work, or I'll tell you why we can't do exactly what you want, and find something practical that will still meet your needs.

All work I do is engineered to meet your needs, not the "cookie cutter" installations done by so many.  Alternative-fuel installs don't tend to be cheap, and many think that's just extra profit for them, but the added cost should reflect added engineering necessary to make certain that the system will function optimally.  Even if I'm replacing a system, I'll do the engineering; I don't just assume that the last guy did it right, and copy him.

My motto has always been, "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right!"  I'm not going to be the cheapest quote you can get for an install, but you'll save money in efficiency, reliability, and comfort in the long run.

Edit: My website www.brownianheating.com is up and running.  I'm still writing some of the pages, and there's no contact information there until I get my email forwarding set up, but feel free to look it over and contact me through the forums.

Joe

[Lloyd Danforth]

I'm thinking Tankless Hot Water heaters should be more popular than they are. The one I have had experience with worked well.  I know they cost more and I can see why they might burn out sooner due to the high heat they need to produce instant hot water, but, I figure they must be more economical than heating stored water.

[MaineShark]

Edited to add: For those who aren't aware, tankless water heaters are high-efficiency gas-fired water heaters.  As the name implies, they have no storage tank: when the unit's flow sensor detects that a faucet is open and water is flowing, the burner comes on and heats the water as it flows through the unit.  The internal computer uses temperature sensors to monitor and continuously adjust the flame to maintain the desired outlet temperature (eg, 120 degrees).  Because you aren't paying to keep 30, 40, 50 or more gallons of water hot all the time, just in case you might need it, you use much less fuel.  Most units are wall-mounted, and roughly the size of a large microwave.

I'm thinking Tankless Hot Water heaters should be more popular than they are. The one I have had experience with worked well.  I know they cost more and I can see why they might burn out sooner due to the high heat they need to produce instant hot water, but, I figure they must be more economical than heating stored water.

They're really not all that expensive, actually.

I'm liking Noritz.  I'll preface that by saying that I haven't actually had the opportunity to install one of their units (Rinnai's are much more common), but I talked to one of their reps for a while, and asked specifically about some things that lead to issues with the Rinnai water heaters... the Noritz equipment seems to be much better-designed and more robust, for similar pricing.

Just for one example, Rinnai Continuum tankless heaters need 1.5gpm flow to trigger the unit, whereas the Noritz triggers at 0.5gpm.  On city water, that's not a big deal, but Rinnai's have been known to have issues on houses with well water, as the pressure fluctuations can cause swings in flow that confuse the unit, due to the lack of flow sensing at low flows.  Of course, the best solution to that particular issue is to install a larger well pressure tank, but then we're talking an added expense on top of the water heater.

The Nortiz units also interconnect easier, for large installations or future upgrades (Rinnai requires a separate control, whereas Nortiz units are already capable of interconnection, and just need to be wired together).  So, you don't have to install an oversized unit, because you may put in a whirlpool tub a few years from now; just install the unit you need then, when you actually do need more hot water, install a second unit.  Two units give better efficiency (it will run on one, unless that one can't keep up, and only then would the second unit activate), and give you redundancy if one fails.

And, Nortiz units don't default back to 108 degrees after a power failure, like Rinnai's do.  I've known customers to ask for the tankless to be replaced with a regular water heater, just because they got sick of going and re-setting it after every power blip, especially if they were away at work and didn't know there had been an issue, until the shower wasn't hot enough.

Realistically, though, the pricing is not really that much more than a with-tank high-efficiency gas water heater.  Maybe $500 more, depending on the installer.

Heck, if anyone wants a quote, PM me with the type and number of fixtures you want to be able run simultaneously, and we'll work up a quote.  I can probably start at $1600, installed.  A bit more if you need a larger unit or if you don't already have gas piping accessible.  The efficiency pays for itself fairly quickly, particularly if you have LP, given the higher cost-per-btu compared to natural gas.  If you have an electric water heater, well, the payoff is even more impressive.

Edited again to add: I was just informed that there is a $300 Federal tax credit for installing high-efficiency water heaters.  So, assuming that you are someone who actually files taxes, you have an opportunity to get some of your money back from Uncle Sam if you install one of these units.

Joe

[SpeedPhreak]

my eventual goal is to have a solar/wind/hydro electric system.  but i want a furnace & some appliances to run off of hydrogen vs nat gas or propane.  i found a site that details the procedure for making, storing, & using hydrogen.

my question is this - & i think it would apply to a nat gas or propane (&propane accessories) system as well - would it be practical/efficient to use a solar hot water system to provide pre heated hot water to an otherwise tankless system (instant) to cut down on fuel usage to instantly heat the water?

[powerchuter]

my eventual goal is to have a solar/wind/hydro electric system.  but i want a furnace & some appliances to run off of hydrogen vs nat gas or propane.  i found a site that details the procedure for making, storing, & using hydrogen.

my question is this - & i think it would apply to a nat gas or propane (&propane accessories) system as well - would it be practical/efficient to use a solar hot water system to provide pre heated hot water to an otherwise tankless system (instant) to cut down on fuel usage to instantly heat the water?

Any "tempering" or pre-heating of the water would be beneficial in lowering the amount of btu's necessary to do the final heating of the water.  The cost effectiveness or "pay-off" of any tempering system(solar or otherwise) would depend on the initial costs of material, labor, and installation versus the calculated savings in the reduced energy usage to increase the water temperature to the desired point.

[eques]

Dude, dude, dude....

I totally gotta remember you when I get my own place one of these days. 

[MaineShark]

my eventual goal is to have a solar/wind/hydro electric system.  but i want a furnace & some appliances to run off of hydrogen vs nat gas or propane.  i found a site that details the procedure for making, storing, & using hydrogen.

my question is this - & i think it would apply to a nat gas or propane (&propane accessories) system as well - would it be practical/efficient to use a solar hot water system to provide pre heated hot water to an otherwise tankless system (instant) to cut down on fuel usage to instantly heat the water?

Any "tempering" or pre-heating of the water would be beneficial in lowering the amount of btu's necessary to do the final heating of the water.  The cost effectiveness or "pay-off" of any tempering system(solar or otherwise) would depend on the initial costs of material, labor, and installation versus the calculated savings in the reduced energy usage to increase the water temperature to the desired point.

That's another reason I dislike Rinnai's - they specifically prohibit this, as their computers can't handle warm entry water.  Nortiz allows it, but it requires some special attention to the piping.

Around here, an engineered solar installation will typically cover 50-60% of your water heating, efficiently.  When you try to go beyond that, you start climbing the cost/benefit curve, and the payoff time increases.

Speaking of installations in this climate, another thing I should mention about the modern solar equipment is that we're no longer dealing with the flat panels of yore, that have a tendency to break under ice/snow weight.  Modern solar collectors are using a series of tubes that collect energy in a phase-change system (similar to refrigeration, but entirely solar-powered).  These tubes collect much more solar energy, and have built-in safeguards against overheating.  They are also durable, due to the round shape and hihg-impact glass (rated for golfball-sized hail).  And, with 20 or 30 tubes in a panel, in the unlikely event that you do manage to break one (say, a tree hits your roof), the system will still operate until you replace that tube, and I will replace tubes on any system I install for the life of the system, at a discounted rate that just covers my costs.  At current prices, that's $200 for the first tube, and $150 for any additional tubes.

But you won't likely need to take me up on the offer; they break so rarely that the supplier doesn't even include them in the trade price list - I had to call them to get a price.

I should also note that these systems can handle anything from south-east to south-west (none of this "you must have a directly south-facing roof" stuff) without issues, as they are more efficient, and the individual tubes can be aligned to face south, even if the panel itself doesn't.  They can also handle roof pitches as low as 25 degrees (that's 5.6"/12" for you roofers).

Tying back into the tankless heaters... if you want a solar system coupled with a tankless heater, the payoff is excellent, given the efficiency of the two systems.  Actually, since these are both technologies I'm fond of, if anyone wants to order a combination solar system and tankless heater, I'll give you a package discount.

Joe

[MaineShark]

I was just informed that there is a $300 Federal tax credit for installing high-efficiency water heaters.  So, assuming that you are someone who actually files taxes, you have an opportunity to get some of your money back from Uncle Sam if you install one of the tankless heaters.

Joe

[MaineShark]

My website www.brownianheating.com is up and running.  I'm still writing some of the pages, and there's no contact information there until I get my email forwarding set up, but feel free to look it over and contact me through the forums.

Joe

[Crocuta]

Any "tempering" or pre-heating of the water would be beneficial in lowering the amount of btu's necessary to do the final heating of the water. 

A local engineering school did a model home a while back.  They used point-of-use water heaters at each faucet.  The one feature they used that's always stuck with me was to direct the drain from the shower to a heat exchanger.  The other side was the water going to the point-of-use heater that was supplying the showerhead.  They claimed to be able to raise the temperature of the incoming water a significant amount by using the hot water that you'd just run over you and down the drain.  Very clever.

[MaineShark]

Found some interesting information.  Anyone want a discounted solar system or wood boiler?

This site lists towns that will exempt some of your property from taxation for the installation of various types of renewable energy systems, including wood heating systems and solar hot water systems.

So, the idea is that, if you install a system, your assessment goes down by 75% of the cost of the installed system, permanently (at least, that's how Northwood does it).  The details are up to your town, so check with them.  In Northwood, they directed me to the tax assessor as the one who handles it, but it might vary in your town.

Additionally, I'm going to offer commissions for leads that result in the sale of a system.  $200 for a solar system, $100 for a wood boiler, and $50 for a gas or oil boiler or furnace.

Information on some extra wood boiler incentives is here.

Joe

[Dreepa]

Also there *may* be a $2000 credit on your Federal taxes for Solar hotwater...
http://www.solarexpert.com/dhw-incentives.html

[MaineShark]

Also there *may* be a $2000 credit on your Federal taxes for Solar hotwater...
http://www.solarexpert.com/dhw-incentives.html

Oh, there is.  The system just has to be installed correctly, in order to be certified.  You can get the full $2000 on any system that costs $6666.67 or more, and I think that's right at the basement price for decent solar equipment, so getting the tax credit is no real difficulty.

Joe

[MaineShark]

This just in:

Baxi, who makes some of the best gas boilers out there, is now offering a solar water heating system.

It's not as fancy as the Viessmann equipment that I usually install, but it's pretty decent equipment and the price difference is phenomenal.  For someone looking for an entry level system, this is the way to go.

I'll tell you what I can do.  If anyone wants to get into solar for short money, and unless your situation is atypical (eg, very long distance from the panel to the water tank, etc.), I'll sell you a solar package installed for $7000.  If you pay Federal taxes, you can take $2000 off when you file (that's a credit, not a deduction, so you'll get back the full amount, not a percentage).  So there's a system for $5000.

I'm typically going to charge $8000 for the Baxi system, but this is the slow season, so consider this a sale.

FYI, this system is designed to work with an existing boiler that is heating an indirect water tank, and will need space on a roof that faces roughly south.  If you have a different sort of water heater, or want to go with a tankless, I can work up a quote for that.

Joe