Hey, I have an idea: Let's hijack a thread.

[mvpel]

Hoshyar Zebari, Foreign Minister of Iraq, May 4, 2007:

Iraqis are standing up every day, and we persevere because there is no other option. We will not surrender our country to terrorists. They have failed to cripple the elected government, and they have failed to intimidate us into submission. Iraqis reject their vision of a future whose hallmarks are bloodshed and hatred.

Those calling for withdrawal may think it is the least painful option, but its benefits would be short-lived. The fate of the region and the world is linked with ours. Leaving a broken Iraq in the Middle East would offer international terrorism a haven and ensure a legacy of chaos for future generations. Furthermore, the sacrifices of all the young men and women who stood up here would have been in vain.

Iraqis, for all our determination and courage, cannot succeed alone. We need a healthy and supportive regional environment. We will not allow our country to be a battleground for settling scores in regional and international conflicts that adversely affect stability inside our borders. Only with continued international commitment and deeper engagement from our neighbors can we establish a stable democratic, federal and united Iraq. The world should not abandon us.

[cyberdoo78]

Dear Minister,

On behalf of myself, a citizen of the United States of America, I thank you for your kind words. I say to you that it's has been an honor to support my military's actions of assisting you and your fellow countrymen in achieving a free, and less tyrannical form of government.

For three years we have supported you and your people in maintaining a free and Democratic Iraq. We have given freely of ourselves to you and your people without any regard to ourselves or to others. There comes a time however when the needs of one's self must be once again placed into the for front. That time approaches.

There must come a time when a free and democratic Iraq must take its first step by itself into the world without the parents who birthed it. To see the real world for what it really is and not in the shadow of protection that currently envelops you. That time approaches.

We have been honored to be the role model of a free and Democratic Iraq. The Iraqi people daily honor us with their kind words and deeds. We, the United States, did not have a role model. We had no help. We ourselves stumbled and fell a few times within our existence. Even today we still make mistakes. There is no perfect form of government, ourselves we have changed, we continue to change.

The comes a time when we all must admit, even though it scares us, we must move away from that which is comfortable, the protection of others, and stand up and start making our own decisions, for better or for worse, we must grow. That time approaches.

We honor the men and women who have given their lives and who continue to give their lives even today to help you move toward the goal of being self-sufficient. We do not see the leaving of Iraq as a waste or see their lives used in vain. It can not be said that their lives were for nothing. We stand today and see a free and Democratic Iraq, bought with the lives of the mothers and daughters, the sons and fathers of both the United States and the honorable people of Iraq.

You will never be truly alone. You are no longer a child, one that needs to be protected or defended. You are now brothers and sisters of freedom. We will always be here to help you when you call apon us, just as we have been for years with our brothers and sisters of the United Kingdom, France, Spain, and the countless others who have asked for our help and we have given the our lives and our resources expecting nothing in return but friendship.

To you I say Minister, and to the people of Iraq, thank you for all your hard work, your praise, and your dedication to the idea of freedom. We must soon however leave you, not in the sense of leaving you undefended, but in the sense that you are all grown up now, and have no further need of us.

-Forrest Blank

[CNHT]

I was thinking that this war in Iraq has been going on a long time now, and it has exhausted me.  I am ready for it to end, but the congress people don't seem to have their act together enough to stop it.

Is it time to start planning a little civil disobedience to "kick it up a notch" (as Emeril would say)?

What ideas could we implement here in Keene to show our opposition to the Iraq War?  I'm thinking beyond protests (which we've been doing for years and haven't yet stopped the war), to actual civil disobedience.

Caleb

I thought voting in Democrats fixed everything?

[cyberdoo78]

I was thinking that this war in Iraq has been going on a long time now, and it has exhausted me.  I am ready for it to end, but the congress people don't seem to have their act together enough to stop it.

Is it time to start planning a little civil disobedience to "kick it up a notch" (as Emeril would say)?

What ideas could we implement here in Keene to show our opposition to the Iraq War?  I'm thinking beyond protests (which we've been doing for years and haven't yet stopped the war), to actual civil disobedience.

Caleb

I thought voting in Democrats fixed everything?

I think alot of people thought this. However they don't appear to be successful yet. Personally, I don't care about the party that someone is, it doesn't mean thats who they are. Look at Ron Paul, Republican, but I don't hold that against him.

God, please let Ron Paul win the presidency, and I promise I'll convert back to Christianity.

[mvpel]

There must come a time when a free and democratic Iraq must take its first step by itself into the world without the parents who birthed it. To see the real world for what it really is and not in the shadow of protection that currently envelops you. That time approaches.

How do you know? The US still has troops in Germany and Japan, and the formal occupation of those nations lasted about six years and seven years, respectively.

[Tom Sawyer]

We have troops almost everwhere we've ever been to war.

I don't want my son and his generation to be drafted to be an occupation force in some hellhole in the middle east.

[Dreepa]

Solution:

Elect Ron Paul who will bring ALL the troops home.

[cyberdoo78]

There must come a time when a free and democratic Iraq must take its first step by itself into the world without the parents who birthed it. To see the real world for what it really is and not in the shadow of protection that currently envelops you. That time approaches.

How do you know? The US still has troops in Germany and Japan, and the formal occupation of those nations lasted about six years and seven years, respectively.

Sorry, that was a propaganda piece. Don't take anything I said as anything but propaganda for a pull out of Iraq. I don't support the war, I don't support the military, and I don't support the troops. In all actuality of fact, I do support them because I pay taxes, however, it is my intention to make clear that I do not indeed want to support them.

I wish to clarify my statement because some may immediately attack my opinion as something of cowardess or some other such concept. The reasons I do not support the war, military, or troops is because they all are, in current form, illegal. Read the works of our founding fathers to prove to yourself that they wanted not a standing army, so it was their intention to deny that right to the government by keeping the right to militias to the various States.

This "war" is not a war as such. By law, you must declare war on a country's army. Not the government itself. The 'war on terrorism' is not such a war, because it violates the Geneva Conventions that all military must wear uniforms, these terrorists do not, hence you can't legally bring the might of military force against them. The war against Iraq is legal in the sense all the proper procedures were followed, but the country of Iraq did not directly attack us, nor are they any threat to us whatsoever. If a bug comes up to you, you swat it away, not destroy it and every one like it.

If they fund terrorists, which I do not deny they do, then you attack them not with military force, but with social and economic force. We need not the UN to justify our actions, In fact the UN would be viewed by our founding fathers as illegal in the first place.

As far as the troops are concerned, if they want to enter into slavery to the United States government, I am not going to stop them. I advise against doing so, because you never know who or what you will be called to attack on. Perhaps someday in the near future, you will be called on to attack the very people that you hope to defend. The police already do, the national guard did after Katrina by taking away the right to keep and bare arms, and you will do when so order to do.

One thing that always bothered me was the laws about insurrection and the like. How are we to over throw the government, if the need should arise(bout time in my opinion), if by doing so we allow the government itself to defend against us? Should the people not defend the government from attacks from within and not the government itself? I don't know, just a quick thought with a quick answer.

You are absolutely correct in your observations about my propaganda however. Perhaps I ought to change it to reflect that we want to see Iraq leading the effort instead of us, or something like that.

We have troops almost everwhere we've ever been to war.

I don't want my son and his generation to be drafted to be an occupation force in some hellhole in the middle east.

Then inform him about the military. Specifically what the founding fathers wanted from its people in the form of the military. Can't have a military if you don't have any troops. The worst thing that the government can do if you refuse is to send you to jail. Better to be justly in jail, then unjustly on the battlefield.

[mvpel]

The only body with which I will not argue in calling for a withdrawal or a timetable has recently spoken to that effect - the Iraqi Parliament.

[Dreepa]

The only body with which I will not argue in calling for a withdrawal or a timetable has recently spoken to that effect - the Iraqi Parliament.

So Iraqi Parliament now makes US policy?

[Dan]

The only body with which I will not argue in calling for a withdrawal or a timetable has recently spoken to that effect - the Iraqi Parliament.

So Iraqi Parliament now makes US policy?

Would that be the lesser of two evils?

[cyberdoo78]

I love the concept of going with the lesser of two evils. Lets choose the lesser evil because its better then the greater evil.

How about we stop electing the lesser evil and start electing someone who represents nither the lesser or greater evil. How about we pick the action that is nither the greater or lesser evil.

[Caleb]

Maybe I should explain better what I wanted.  This thread is *not* a thread for debating whether the Iraq War ought to be stopped or not.  There are other threads for that. This thread is specifically for suggesting civil disobedience that could be enacted with some degree of success in helping to end the war or else bringing attention to the fact that we are stepping it up a notch.  So far, Ian, Dada, and supperman have suggested a civil disobedience related idea.  Thank you, folks. For those who are not interested in civil disobedience related projects on this issue, please continue unrelated discussions on another thread.

Thanks,
Caleb

[FTL_Ian]

You're an admin.  Consider splitting their posts...

[forsytjr]

I think Sununu is coming around.  His Republican Liberty Caucus (then national equivalent of the NHLA) ratings are very good - he is a reasonable guy.  I think as a young Senator, he fell into the trap of trusting his party too much, and giving it too much loyalty.  He has stepped away from his party on RealID.  Not everyone has the courage and convictions of Ron Paul, but I think Sununu has the correct core beliefs. 

Now, on the other side, the Democrats ARE NOT the party of peace.  Please trust me on this, I spent ALL of the Clinton administration overseas fighting in undeclared wars in the Air Force.  It was under the Clinton administration that the policy of Regime change in Iraq was put into place. 

Both parties are parties of foreign interventionism.  They just differ on when and where to step in.  I have far more faith that a man that believes in liberty in so many other ways (Sununu) will begin to see the light.