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[Tom Sawyer]

The false dichotomy of pacifism or violence is not what is going on here.

I am not a pacifist. Far from it in fact. But, with the power goes the responsibility.

As to if Nonviolent Resistance has been effective. The last 50 years has been almost exclusively the nonviolent efforts that have toppled the totalitarian governments.
Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany etc. What form of government they ended up creating might not be to our liking, but the point is they affected radical change with little violence.

Violence fuels the growth of the state. Hearts and minds are the real secrets to success. Nonviolence puts the thugs in the position of having to show the true nature of their approach.

As to finally having taken all you can take and responding to force with force... I am sympathetic to the conditions that lead a person to this point. But, remember that it is trading your life for theirs. And in the end the public at large will most probably be told you where a violent threat and they will look justified in their actions.

For folks that are interested in more info or have info to share on the subject check out this thread.
REVOLUTION, Ya Say Ya Want A
http://newhampshireunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=8273.0

[MaineShark]

As to if Nonviolent Resistance has been effective. The last 50 years has been almost exclusively the nonviolent efforts that have toppled the totalitarian governments.
Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany etc. What form of government they ended up creating might not be to our liking, but the point is they affected radical change with little violence.

The forms of government they ended up creating are the heart of the issue.  If you topple the Totalitarianville government and replace it with the Fascististan government, did you accomplish anything?

I have no doubt that nonviolent resistance, used correctly, could topple the Federal government.  The odds are long, but I do believe it is possible.  But could nonviolent resistance follow through and actually "win the peace" following the revolution?  I don't believe that is realistic, and I think that history backs me up on that.

That doesn't mean we need to have a bloodbath, but I think some level of violence will be inevitable, as various power-hungry groups attack each other and us.

Hearts and minds are the real secrets to success. Nonviolence puts the thugs in the position of having to show the true nature of their approach.

True enough.  As I said, it's a valuable thing, and people like Russell give me hope.  But I'm thinking long-term, not just to the point of change, but to maintaining that change.

As to finally having taken all you can take and responding to force with force... I am sympathetic to the conditions that lead a person to this point. But, remember that it is trading your life for theirs. And in the end the public at large will most probably be told you where a violent threat and they will look justified in their actions.

They'll say that, regardless.  How many people have been murdered and then had a "drop gun" placed in their hand?  If the State wants to paint you as a "violent threat," they'll do it regardless of your actual actions.

Joe

[Libertarian Hippie]

Oh, the "shoot the gov't mentality" you refer to is much much more moderate than it used to be man...
You should have been here last year (or even before that)
This board has a bunch of moderates now
It used to be almost completely anarcho-capitalist, with a few minarchists thrown in

This is a lie.  You can look back through old posts on this board.

Kat, maybe you see things differently than I did, but I really don't appreciate being called a lier.

[Kat Kanning]

There's the door if you don't like it.

[lastlady]

There's the door if you don't like it.

Wow Kat! This is a side of you I've never seen on the forum before. Is everything okay?

[Kat Kanning]

Wow Kat! This is a side of you I've never seen on the forum before. Is everything okay?

My bitchy side?  I'm OK. Thanks for asking though.

[lastlady]

Wow Kat! This is a side of you I've never seen on the forum before. Is everything okay?

My bitchy side?  I'm OK. Thanks for asking though.

Good! 

[lastlady]

As to if Nonviolent Resistance has been effective. The last 50 years has been almost exclusively the nonviolent efforts that have toppled the totalitarian governments.
Czechoslovakia, Poland, East Germany etc. What form of government they ended up creating might not be to our liking, but the point is they affected radical change with little violence.

The forms of government they ended up creating are the heart of the issue.  If you topple the Totalitarianville government and replace it with the Fascististan government, did you accomplish anything?

I have no doubt that nonviolent resistance, used correctly, could topple the Federal government.  The odds are long, but I do believe it is possible.  But could nonviolent resistance follow through and actually "win the peace" following the revolution?  I don't believe that is realistic, and I think that history backs me up on that.

That doesn't mean we need to have a bloodbath, but I think some level of violence will be inevitable, as various power-hungry groups attack each other and us.

Hearts and minds are the real secrets to success. Nonviolence puts the thugs in the position of having to show the true nature of their approach.

True enough.  As I said, it's a valuable thing, and people like Russell give me hope.  But I'm thinking long-term, not just to the point of change, but to maintaining that change.

As to finally having taken all you can take and responding to force with force... I am sympathetic to the conditions that lead a person to this point. But, remember that it is trading your life for theirs. And in the end the public at large will most probably be told you where a violent threat and they will look justified in their actions.

They'll say that, regardless.  How many people have been murdered and then had a "drop gun" placed in their hand?  If the State wants to paint you as a "violent threat," they'll do it regardless of your actual actions.

Joe

I really learn a lot from discussions like this thank you both.

Man Joe I am really batteling it out with someone for your Karma. 

[Libertarian Hippie]

There's the door if you don't like it.

Kat, did I do something to offend you?

[KBCraig]

Man Joe I am really batteling it out with someone for your Karma. 

You're not fighting alone. I just got him up to zero... for now.

[powerchuter]

Man Joe I am really batteling it out with someone for your Karma. 

You're not fighting alone. I just got him up to zero... for now.

Hey!  I'm battling with them also...
That means that there are at least three of us and we are barely keeping up with the smiters...
That's sad...
Really sad...

[lastlady]

Man Joe I am really batteling it out with someone for your Karma. 

You're not fighting alone. I just got him up to zero... for now.

Hey!  I'm battling with them also...
That means that there are at least three of us and we are barely keeping up with the smiters...
That's sad...
Really sad...

What is that all about? Perhaps a smiter will reveal him/herself and explain?

[powerchuter]

Oh, the "shoot the gov't mentality" you refer to is much much more moderate than it used to be man...
You should have been here last year (or even before that)
This board has a bunch of moderates now
It used to be almost completely anarcho-capitalist, with a few minarchists thrown in

This is a lie.  You can look back through old posts on this board.

Kat, maybe you see things differently than I did, but I really don't appreciate being called a lier.

I don't like being called a "killer" or "murderer" either...
Superior Defensive Force resulting in the death of the aggressor isn't "killing" or "murder" to me...and to alot of other people as well...

Like Joe says...say Russell wins...for how long?...til the next tyrannical thugs step up to the plate?

In "Unintended Consequences" and other similar books...random acts of cleansing take place because...the truth of the matter is that people are at the breaking point all over...not just in one specific city, state, or region...

These anonymous cleansings put all aggressors on notice of what might very well happen to them if they don't control themselves and cease and desist...

Honestly, the truth about any change brought about by "non-violent" resistance is...

If the thugs didn't see the gun barrels glistening in the distance...they would just smoke the pacifists and kick em in a hole somewhere...

Your airtime is bought and paid for by millions of people willing to defend themselves with arms...and to take up arms to respond to aggression...even aggression against non-violent resisters...

And Lloyd...I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that I intend to do ANYTHING other than use superior defensive force against aggressors and those initiating force or fraud...If you have that idea it is your own...not mine...

And Joe...If I know you're on guard duty...I rest peacefully...thank you from the bottom of my heart!

And Corinna...can't wait to see you again!

And to my dearest Kat...
Yes I know I seem like a heartless bastard...perhaps frequently even...but you know in your heart that isn't true...I've looked into your eyes...into your soul...and saw your heart smiling back at me...

Honestly, none of us knows for sure what is ahead of us...but whatever happens I'm for sticking together...

And to Kira...I apologize to you personally from the depths of my heart for using your name in my example...my five daughters always slept soundly while under my roof and watchful eye...peacefully...

And to the rest of you(especially those running the matrix)...resume!

[Caleb]

powerchuter, I have heard many of my friends say things about shooting the government if they do this or that. One friend tells me that he will start shooting if they start taking us off to camps because, "Hey, I figure dying in a shootout is better than going off to a camp."  But that is something he says once in awhile, not his predominant attitude.

I say this to you as a friend, and I hope you take it like that, and not like I'm getting on your case.  It just seems that you're a little too anxious to pull the trigger.  "Superior defensive force" ought to be something you hope to God you never have to use ... but you literally breathe it.

And I don't want to get on your case here. I think you do this out of frustration.  I realize people have accused you of being a "fed".  I personally don't think that is the case.  I think we're all frustrated with the arrogance that some people have to do evil things to us, while the vast majority of Americans stand idly by and cheer. That's the most frustrating part for me:  I realize there are evil people.  But the good guys far outnumber the bad guys, and they aren't supposed to be so ambivalent.

But frustration and anger can eat you alive.  Like I said, I hope you take this in the spirit it was intended and don't consider it a personal attack.

Caleb

[Libertarian Hippie]

HUH????

Oh, the "shoot the gov't mentality" you refer to is much much more moderate than it used to be man...
You should have been here last year (or even before that)
This board has a bunch of moderates now
It used to be almost completely anarcho-capitalist, with a few minarchists thrown in

This is a lie.  You can look back through old posts on this board.

Kat, maybe you see things differently than I did, but I really don't appreciate being called a lier.

I don't like being called a "killer" or "murderer" either...
Superior Defensive Force resulting in the death of the aggressor isn't "killing" or "murder" to me...and to alot of other people as well...

Like Joe says...say Russell wins...for how long?...til the next tyrannical thugs step up to the plate?

In "Unintended Consequences" and other similar books...random acts of cleansing take place because...the truth of the matter is that people are at the breaking point all over...not just in one specific city, state, or region...

These anonymous cleansings put all aggressors on notice of what might very well happen to them if they don't control themselves and cease and desist...

Honestly, the truth about any change brought about by "non-violent" resistance is...

If the thugs didn't see the gun barrels glistening in the distance...they would just smoke the pacifists and kick em in a hole somewhere...

Your airtime is bought and paid for by millions of people willing to defend themselves with arms...and to take up arms to respond to aggression...even aggression against non-violent resisters...

And Lloyd...I'm not sure where you ever got the idea that I intend to do ANYTHING other than use superior defensive force against aggressors and those initiating force or fraud...If you have that idea it is your own...not mine...

And Joe...If I know you're on guard duty...I rest peacefully...thank you from the bottom of my heart!

And Corinna...can't wait to see you again!

And to my dearest Kat...
Yes I know I seem like a heartless bastard...perhaps frequently even...but you know in your heart that isn't true...I've looked into your eyes...into your soul...and saw your heart smiling back at me...

Honestly, none of us knows for sure what is ahead of us...but whatever happens I'm for sticking together...

And to Kira...I apologize to you personally from the depths of my heart for using your name in my example...my five daughters always slept soundly while under my roof and watchful eye...peacefully...

And to the rest of you(especially those running the matrix)...resume!