Vaccines Effective?

[Braddogg]

I have sat down and filed through over 15,000 pieces of information from JAMA to historical reports to the fine print on the vaccine package inserts (which are the manufacturers list of do's and don'ts and and a complete listing of the ingredients).

Did you read the article in the "Tokai Journ of Experimental Biology and Medicine" you referenced?  That you made the same exact misattribution as a "vaccination liberation" website is a strange coincidence, I guess?

BUT what I have found (and I sense you will do the same) is these requests usually have a hidden agenda and will make me jump through a mirage of hoops to fullfill their every request.

Yesssssss, my hidden agendaaaaaaa.    

That is why I enjoy speaking to groups that already have an interest in learning. And I have little interest in speaking about this topic to someone who will never change their belief system on vaccines. Is that clear without being disrespectful?

Sure.  I used to be a Christian; someone came along with better evidence and arguments, and now I'm an atheist.  Certainly that's evidence that I'm capable of changing my mind in light of new facts . . . .

If you've got your pamphlet in a PDF or something, give me a shout and I'll read it over.

[kola]

Did you read the article in the "Tokai Journ of Experimental Biology and Medicine" you referenced?  That you made the same exact misattribution as a "vaccination liberation" website is a strange coincidence, I guess?

Look it up:
Current epidemiology of pertussis in the United States. Tokai J Exp Bio & Med; Hutchins, S.S., Cochi, S.L.,, Brink, E.W., et al. 1988; 13 (suppl): 103-109.

Sure.  I used to be a Christian; someone came along with better evidence and arguments, and now I'm an atheist.  Certainly that's evidence that I'm capable of changing my mind in light of new facts . . . .

Most people who talk of being "Christians" do not live the life of a true Christian. I am glad you are happy and yes, I admit that is your proof. 

If you've got your pamphlet in a PDF or something, give me a shout and I'll read it over.

Thanks for your humble offer but for some odd reason I have the notion it wouldn't be worth either of our times.
What I have put together is no different than the information that is readily accessable by searching the internet. 

[kola]

Kola:A case control study has shown that 41% of meningitis occurred in children vaccinated against the disease. The vaccines protective efficacy was rated as minus 58%. This means that kids are much more likely to get the disease if they are vaccinated. (JAMA 1988 Osterholm etal 260;1423-1428)

Braddog:What does "protective efficacy" mean in this instance?  How was it determined?
I think most of your statistics are misleading.  They aren't taking into account the numbers.  100 people are vaccinated, and 20 aren't.  Then 20 people catch the disease.  10 of them are vaccinated, 10 of them are not.  The misleading statistic: 50% of those with the disease were vaccinated.  The more pertinent statistic: 10% of those vaccinated caught the disease, while 50% of those not vaccinated caught the disease.  Do you have any statistics of that more pertinent kind?

Protective efficacy is a term that describes if a drug is effective. I believe the term is quite self explanatory. You ask how was it determined in the JAMA Osterhelm study? Off the top of my head I do not the specifics. Now I could produce them for you and bow to your every request couldn't I? Since our relationship on this topic is a bit shaky let me propose this method of action. If you are sincere and truly interested in the study then I encourage you to use your time and energy to read about the details either online or from PubMed or stroll down to your local library and see if they have a copy. I would be very interested to hear you opinions after you have read the study (in its entirety) and then we can address our concerns. Let me know when you are ready.

Kola: Among school age children, measles outbreaks have occurred in schools with vaccination levels of greater than 98%. These outbreaks have occurred on all parts of the US. (Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report MMWR (CDC) Dec29, 1989

Braddog: Didn't you later refer to the CDC as unreliable psuedo-science . . . .?

This is also a common statement I hear and I understand your rationale. In one of my earlier posts I talked about the CDC's weaknesses. I also spoke how they will publish information without a shred of evidence. The anointed position of "THE CDC" gets respect by many people including medical doctors and their information is readily accepted without question. Blind faith and pseudoscience. I choose to use their information because it is so widely accepted as factual by others, especially by the medical community. If they believe the CDC's statements then I use it to show their ineptness, the lack of scientific evidence on whatever the particular topic is. But, on the other hand some of their information is accurate and you can trace it back and follow their sources. I do not accept a piece of literature based solely on the writers name. Each piece must be scrutinized. If the CDC wants to report something they should list where they acquired the information from. if not, they could just pull it out of thin air. The CDC's biggest downfall is their inconsistency to provide their sources. Sometimes they do it and sometimes they don't.   

Kola; A 1998 report stated Pertussis is at its highest levels since 1967. (US Dept of Human Health and Services).

Braddog: What, you're going to trust government reporting scare tactic crap?

This is what you accept and trust, is it not? Like I have said many times; look it up. Find out where they got the information from. Is the DHHS article just a scare tactic or is it the truth? You tell me. Find out the truth then get back to me, then we can discuss it. Fair enough? 

Kola: Do I need to list all the flu outbreaks amongst all the people who had their yearly flu shots? Even the CDC has admitted when their flu vaccines were ineffective and when the pharm company had contaminated products. So now what do they recommend? Two shots or more per year!


Braddog: Do you understand the scientific rationale behind the limited effectiveness of the flu vaccine?

The flu shot is the biggest scam in history and causes more harm than good. BTW mercury is still in it after the FDA asked for its removal in 1999. This is a great example of pure quackery.

Kola

[Braddogg]

There is no "Tokai Journal of Experimental Biology and Medicine."  It is "The Tokai journal of experimental and clinical medicine."

You responded to my question about the efficacy of flu vaccines with an assertion that it's a scam.

You accused me of having a hidden agenda and then, when I mentioned it, did not offer clarification, nor retraction.

You have given no evidence of Dr Barrett's corruption other than your conversation with someone about a court case (which is fine, except you then made it clear that you thought the point you were making was glaringly obvious and should be taken on face value).

You have said that you don't want to discuss this any further until I "educate myself" and already agree with you.  ("Before you lash out why not find out the truth? Then we can discuss it.")

I can tell we're done here.  Or, at least, that I'm done discussing this with you.

[kola]

When discussing vaccines, everytime I challenge a skeptic to do something on their own (i.e look up a study, track down a source etc) they throw in their cards. It supports my earlier statements about sincerity regarding the topic. When people are truly interested in the topic, most often they do things on their own without even being asked. Braddogg, your statement supporting Quackwatch was the smell of an alleycat. You were very predictable from the start. You have once again proved to me that some people are just not worth the time and effort. I must admit you did not completely fit the typical "mold" I often encounter. Almost all of them resort to namecalling and/or vulgarities. I thank you for not taking that course of action. I do wish you well in your endeavors. Take care.

Sincerely,
Kola

[kola]

Henry, I just finished watching the seminar/lecture you posted. Wow huh?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6890106663412840646&q=ayoub&total=684&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

They do a great job of proving the link to mercury causing Autism. They even brought up the first diagnosed case of Autism in 1931 and remarkably it was 1931 when mercury was first introduced as a vaccine ingredient. They do an incredible job of showing all the conflicts of interest amongst the CDC, FDA and the AMA. The vid is an hour and a half and everyone should view it. It is my opinion that mercury in vaccines is the main culprit for crippling and killing our children.

Thanks for sharing,
Kola 

[kola]

In Thailand, No vaccine, no ID card.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dutK67AwSg&mode=related&search=

[Henry]

In Thailand, No vaccine, no ID card.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dutK67AwSg&mode=related&search=

That's sick. Here's how the same thing works in the US. Use the media to make people beg for it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsK7Jt-xma4&mode=related&search=


The following explains why the comments on the page are so pro-ignorance...

signhawk -
why did you delete so many recent comments?

eoroxter -
Because they were 8 pages of pointless debate. This video was meant for entertaining, not to expose a bunch of conspiracy theories.

[kola]

yeah Henry, I saw the youtube link and I posted 2 medical references showing a causative link between mercury and Autism. They pulled it and banned me from commenting.  Nazi's!

So from that little propaganda clip of "House" the average Joe gets this:

1) shes a stupid mom

2) breastmilk is gross ( his sarcastic "yummy" comments)

3) people don't vax because they can't afford it 

4) unvaxed kids die
------------------------

now the truth:

1) Most moms who choose not to vax are very well educated and often know more about vaccines than the docs. This is what pisses the MDs off.

2) Breastmilk is superior to any vaccine and builds a baby's immune system naturally. There is no VALID proof that breast milk immunity/antibodies wear off in 6 months. His sarcastic yummy remarks make him look like an ass. I see very few babies complaining about the taste.

3.) The deciding factor about vaxing has nothing to do with cost afforadability. In fact, almost all low income folks can get their kids vaxed for free AND if you are welfare mom YOU MUST VAX your kid or they will cut off benefits and could take your baby.

4) Unvaxed kids do not die. As much as the fearmongers love to drive home this message it is completely false. In fact we have seen here that the outbreaks effect the vaccinated population. Very rarely is there a death from these diseases, in vaxed or unvaxed kids.

That little snippet is one of the reasons I gave away my TV's (23 years ago)
A perfect example of medical SCARE TACTICS to brainwash the sheeple into compliance.. and all for the sake of the almighty filthy dollar.

I would have loved to been with that mom and the doc in that clinic. I would have skinned him alive.

Kola     

[kola]

grrrr..I had to watch that video again.

That asshole doc even has derogatory remarks to the "all natural" toy frog.

Thank God parents are starting to wake up and "dinosaur" Md's like him will soon be out of job.

ER, Scrubs and all those other trash medical TV shows are one of the reasons I gave away my TV's (3 years ago).

Kola

[Henry]

grrrr..I had to watch that video again.

That asshole doc even has derogatory remarks to the "all natural" toy frog.

Thank God parents are starting to wake up and "dinosaur" Md's like him will soon be out of job.

ER, Scrubs and all those other trash medical TV shows are one of the reasons I gave away my TV's (3 years ago).

Kola

yeah, is exactly what I can't watch tv anymore also. It's like that 24/7. People laugh at me, but it's military management. They run the programming and have people in the the show writing across the board. TV is not our friend. It's social engineering, plain and simply.

[kola]

I here ya bro'

btw ..my first post was a typo..it wasn't 23..it was 3 years ago. 

kola

[kola]

Yes, another vaccine forced on the people...this one targets young women.

All states have exemption status. Do not let anyone bullshit you.

If you choose to say no, get a copy of the law and exercise your right. If you choose do say yes, do your own resarch because the CDC and Doctor Moneygrubber will not tell you the truth.

It is interesting to read the so-called "safety study" that was done on Gardasil. It was psudeoscience at its best. When will the sheeple wake up and realize pus, foreign blood and toxic chemicals do not boost an immune system?

Kola

[kola]

I thought this DVM had some interesting views on animal vaccines:

http://www.whale.to/m/pitcairn.html

Kola