Politics is an immoral dead-end

[enloopious]

Nobody hates the govt more than I do but I have to say that I am running for local office because I know I can do more to subvert the system there than anywhere else. When I get elected I am only going to accept as much as the lowest paid person in my town makes. As a public servant that is the only salary that makes sense. The others make a lot more than that and I can't wait to see the backlash.

This conversation could go on forever. Anarchy is the closest to peace that there can possibly be. It allows people to be themselves. The idea of freedom is just a whisper. It has to be said quietly and not publicly because it contradicts business and corporations and disappears with the amassing of wealth and power. By definition it can not be defined and when the public defines freedom and peace and anarchy it kills the whole idea.

Asking questions like "what do you plan for after you eliminate the government" is a contradiction. It is that exact planning and trying to define freedom that has led us here. All public programs (any program for that matter) should be voluntary. Anything else is slavery.

Finance is a gun, politics is knowing when to pull the trigger. ~The Godfather

[CNHT]

I guess from all the post that cnht doesn't agree with you Eric

It doesn't matter that I don't agree with him, that would never be an issue. But what matters is I find his storming in here and demanding others to justify what THEY do to be quite offensive.

[Kat Kanning]

How do you know whether people are being hassled to take up politics or not Jane?  It's not happening on this forum.

[David]

I think I'm sounding preachier than I mean to. My post is too long. What I'm trying to say is go do what you believe to be right and don't pressure me to do it. I just want you to understand my decision and how I came to it when you ask me to donate to Ron Paul or to go vote and I decline. If you hope to persuade me otherwise, you need to understand where I'm at.

Actually the more you write the more I want you to join us on the west side, (of the state) 

But to be berated daily for what you're calling apathy isn't particularly nice or helpful.  Doing things differently from you isn't equal to apathy.

No one has been berating anyone for apathy or doing things differently. However, this guy charges in here under a new alias and like a troll starts berating people for their participation in political activity, demanding we explain to him, as if that matters, why we do it and how we justify it.

What was his previous online name?  I don't think he is a troll just because he started a single controversial thread. 

[dalebert]

It doesn't matter that I don't agree with him, that would never be an issue. But what matters is I find his storming in here and demanding others to justify what THEY do to be quite offensive.

His approach does tend to be heavy-handed and is therefore probably not very effective at changing attitudes. He's very idealistic and he feels very strongly about these things and his posts could certainly benefit from a little more tact.

Try to cut him some slack and keep in mind that this was inspired by Mark suggesting on FTL last night that the principled anarchist types should consider throwing their principles out the window and vote for Ron Paul to support their friends. (I'm paraphrasing to make a point) A statement like that begs for principled anarchists to speak up and remind people why we are actively and consciously choosing to opt-out of politics. It's not apathy.

It's an interesting impasse. Obviously, the political activists don't believe they're engaged in immoral activities and the anarchists don't believe that they're apathetic. I agree that we should be more tactful in our discussions.

Someone remind me to call into FTL tonight at 7pm since I'll be at TT. 

[shyfrog]

Humble request or insist? You sound confused. Are you sure your path is the absolute best path for everyone? Or is it just your personal view as an individual? Moral rectitude? What is this...church? Preach away brother, preach away *yawn*

Stop labeling people. It belies sound reason.

If someone were to steal my wallet, I would not hesitate to "label" him or her a thief; any other name would be dishonest.

And if he returns the wallet with everything intact? Still a thief? A thief that changed his/her mind but still a thief? No longer a thief? A reformed thief? A person who tried thievery and decided it was wrong and no longer thinks thievery is reasonable? A person? A human being capable of rational thought, choice, and the ability to change? What if he only thought about stealing the wallet? What if we can stop him from stealing the wallet before he ever decides to steal the wallet by studying his habits, labeling them, and documenting them in order to prevent the theft from ever happening in the first place...

I can label inanimate objects. That's easy. Not so easy with people.
Labeling people is one of the tenets of statism. *hands you a gold star*

I still stand by: "Stop labeling people. It belies reason."

[CNHT]

How do you know whether people are being hassled to take up politics or not Jane?  It's not happening on this forum.

I understand. I just wanted to make sure you  knew  I only responded to Vitruvian who was demanding we denounce it.
I'm not sure I've ever asked you to take up politics, once I found out you didn't like it.
It's not necessary to believe the same things to be friends socially.
In fact I'm still quite good friends with people who've been banished from here long ago because some did not like their form of anarchy or who else they were hanging with.

[CNHT]

I don't think he is a troll just because he started a single controversial thread. 

I guess 'some' questions are allowed and tolerated, and others are not.

If I recall awhile back, when someone asked what I believe was an honest question about what you thought of a certain issue, you all jumped on him like he was a troll. Yet this guy charges in here, and is 'demanding' people explain and justify themselves for doing things that don't even concern him but they bother him in his mind.  None of his business I'd say. And the qualifications of a troll post..

[dalebert]

Yet this guy charges in here, and is 'demanding' people explain and justify themselves for doing things that don't even concern him but they bother him in his mind.  None of his business I'd say.

Jane, I have to take issue with this statement. This is the very point of contention- that politics is an aggressive act of force- the reason this thread is controversial. I agreed with you about him being rather heavy-handed and not tactful, but politics does affect us. We have every right to contest an action that infringes on our rights. We're all fighting against the things that are infringing on our liberties. To say that it's is in his head is skipping ahead of the debate and presuming that you have conveyed your point of view to him. You haven't. IF in fact, people are infringing on his rights by engaging in politics, then it is his business. That's his point.

OK, I'm just playing arbitrator / moderator. Continue. 

[picaro]

A statement like that begs for principled anarchists to speak up and remind people why we are actively and consciously choosing to opt-out of politics. It's not apathy.

He should direct his response to FTL and stop acting like people here owe him a justification for their chosen methods.

What is he doing to advance freedom, beyond participating in an incestuous debate society?    There are principled anarchists here in NH who are doing something.  They have my respect. 

Sitting, talking and thinking are perfectly fine.  However, they aren't location specific activities, they have minimal impact on the outside world, and refining the philosophy of Mises would be a marginal benefit.   

The challenge is not to improve the philosophy, but to assist in its translation.  No matter if you choose to be political or apolitical, being an arrogant ass is at cross-purposes with helping others (especially emotional thinkers) see the value in liberty.

[Nat F]

This is the very point of contention- that politics is an aggressive act of force- the reason this thread is controversial. I agreed with you about him being rather heavy-handed and not tactful, but politics does affect us. We have every right to contest an action that infringes on our rights. We're all fighting against the things that are infringing on our liberties. To say that it's is in his head is skipping ahead of the debate and presuming that you have conveyed your point of view to him. You haven't. IF in fact, people are infringing on his rights by engaging in politics, then it is his business. That's his point.

If politics is an aggressive act of force then an anarchist who believes in self defense has the right and ability to respond with force in kind.  That action can take the form of civil disobedience (ala Lauren's actions) and can also use the very political process initiating force against them to stop that force.  It's up to each individual to decide what methods they wish to use but failing to make use of all tools at hand to reduce and possibly even prevent the aggressive act of force that politics may be is much the same as pissing into the wind.

-Nat

[dalebert]

If politics is an aggressive act of force...

Exactly. I see you caught my careful qualification of it as an "aggressive" act of force. I believe in defensive force but aggressive force is never justified. This is why I said the line seems fuzzier in a case where an aggressive law is being removed or nullified or rolled back in some way and voting for that does not appear to be an act of aggression. Unfortunately it still feeds into the appearance of legitimacy which I'm trying very hard to tear down. Where it is unambiguously aggressive to me is when it comes time to put a person in a position of power over other people. It's that very consolidation of power that I take issue with. I can't simply justify that as a defensive use of force.

[dalebert]

He should direct his response to FTL and stop acting like people here owe him a justification for their chosen methods.

What is he doing to advance freedom, beyond participating in an incestuous debate society?    There are principled anarchists here in NH who are doing something.  They have my respect. 

Sitting, talking and thinking are perfectly fine.  However, they aren't location specific activities, they have minimal impact on the outside world, and refining the philosophy of Mises would be a marginal benefit.   

The challenge is not to improve the philosophy, but to assist in its translation.  No matter if you choose to be political or apolitical, being an arrogant ass is at cross-purposes with helping others (especially emotional thinkers) see the value in liberty.

I think the attacks on Eric are becoming repetitive and uncalled for. You're attacking a 19 year-old who's got a whole life ahead of him to learn to debate better and to engage in who knows what kind of activism. I repeat for your edudification:

Eric is definitely not a "do nothing" kind of guy. He's a very young, very principled, some would say too idealistic (but not me, I'm frequently accused of the same) guy who took a year out of school to check out the Free State Project.

It's funny to me that we seem to be in agreement that more tact is called for (yes, Eric too) and now we're back to personal attacks on Eric for supposed apathy. ...sigh.

[dalebert]

I think I'd better avoid this thread for a while. I don't mind the debate topic, but Eric is a friend of mine who I admire and I think you've all gotten a misleading first impression of him. It's making me a bit defensive.

[picaro]

Does Eric have plans to change things beyond just talking to his friends?  (just talking to friends could be effective, if you work  hard to enlarge your sphere of influence / social networks)

Attempting to paint everyone who uses political means with the same straw-man argument is annoying.  I respect people who choose non-political means of resistance.  (e.g. Your cartoon work is already getting recognition outside the movement.) I am just asking what action is he proposing or in the process of accomplishing?

Please, suggestions for effective action are always welcome.   If you want to drop-out and not engage the beast, there are better places than New Hampshire to escape.