Mike Barskey pulled over 101 east. Mike taken out of car and around back

[Lloyd Danforth]

the roleplaying idea is stellar and i look forward to taping and airing some of the better "skits"

i find that i suck at playing the cop

Go figure

[Friday]

From what I gathered from the phone calls, the open container tickets grew solely out of what y'all told them. Politely engaging in witty banter about brands of beer led directly to a ticket.

Here's a question for everyone. When I was sitting in the passenger seat with the door open, and my feet on the ground outside, the second cop asked me "Which of you has been drinking tonight?"

What would a non-compliant answer have been?

Since the question was directed at both of you, and Mike was the one getting pulled over for speeding, I think it would have been perfectly appropriate for you to not respond (at least on that first asking).  Leave it to the driver to respond.

[FTL_Ian]

You could always affect a foreign accent and say "Aye deu nout speek engiss!"   

[William]

"Do not ever assume that you can best a street cop with superior knowledge, wit or logic. By temperament, experience, and training, they will deflect all your questions while asking their own. They will seem nonsensical to the honest person, and the more honest and logical you are, the more it will throw you off your game."

Nonsense, I've done it on numerous occasions. I guess it helps that I've been in direct sales for years.

[Russell Kanning]

actually I have had many interesting experiences where the cops were befuddled, confused and speechless.
many times they have not run into some of our antics ... i mean methods

even reading this thread is fun ... because the cops will get 50 different responses from this crowd

[Russell Kanning]

All great advice.  I am a huge fan of simplicity and de-escalating tension.

David is good this way ... sometimes I like escalating situations.

I have also found, like others have touched on ... if I try to play their game ... everyone loses. My proper means and goals are so different than a cop "doing his job" that we either have trouble communicating or they are stumbling over themselves trying to show that they are not bad guys.

[Coconut]

why did he ask me for my ID, and could I have refused to show it to him?

If you are in a vehicle they can ask for your id for the purpose of establishing ownership of the vehicle, so I do not see any reason for requiring it if that has already been established.

As I see it, there's no requirement she have ID to be a passenger, so there's no requirement for her to show ID.

However, if they are going to issue her a ticket, and cannot confirm her ID, they may take her in. I saw this happen to a guy in Keene. He and his friend were drinking on the sidewalk underage. One had an ID and one didn't. The one with the ID got a ticket, and the one without was put in the cruiser for a ride.

[MTPorcupine3]

[Y]ou err in assuming the conversation would go as you've outlined above....

Do not ever assume that you can best a street cop with superior knowledge, wit or logic....

The more you prepare these scripts in your head, the less likely they are to play out as you planned....

I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. We should all prepare for these encounters, but it's a mistake to believe that those we encounter would respond as we would.

Good points. That's why I've said (on other threads) that there is no guarantee how a cop might respond no matter what you do or say. And it underscores the importance of recording and/or filming encounters if at all possible. Traveling with others is probably safer, as well for witnesses.

[MaineShark]

Which is another question I have, why did he ask me for my ID, and could I have refused to show it to him?

IIRC, the most they can legally "demand" is your name, address, and what you are doing.  You are not required to show ID (or even have ID), unless you are operating a vehicle, or somesuch.

If you're willing to go to jail, you could say:

"Am I required to answer your question?"
-YES YOU ARE.
"I'll be happy to answer it as soon as you show me proof of my obligation.  Otherwise, am I free to go?"

"Could you tell me the RSA which requires me to answer that question?"

Puts them on the defensive.  I've done that quite frequently with building inspectors who just make up "codes" as they go:

"You need to change this."
"Oh?  I was unaware that was the code.  Could you fax me a copy of the relevant section, so I can be sure to fix it properly?"
"Uh, never mind."

They always try and make you justify yourself.  "What right do you have to drive without our permission?" and such.  It's an infantile tactic to try and keep you off-balance.  Get your opponent trying to justify himself, and he forgets about the actual topic.  Well, it works both ways, and if you can get them trying to justify themselves, then they aren't making demands on you.

A rookie with four weeks under an FTO has dealt with more lying sociopaths than the average Middle Class American will encounter in a lifetime.

Well, yeah, but the "average Middle Class American" doesn't choose to get into a profession where you have lying sociopaths for co-workers...

Joe

[Mike Barskey]

If you're willing to go to jail, you could say:

"Am I required to answer your question?"
-YES YOU ARE.
"I'll be happy to answer it as soon as you show me proof of my obligation.  Otherwise, am I free to go?"

"Could you tell me the RSA which requires me to answer that question?"

I think this was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but one response a cop can give to "am I required to obey you?" is "yes you are." And one response to "what is the law which requires me to answer your question?" is "disobeying an officer." The first response, "yes you are required to obey," might be made by a cop just because they're an ass, but seems easy enough to me to disregard because you can ask about the specific law requiring you to obey. But the 2nd response seems very tough to ignore because it's so vague and tyrannical (like "contempt of court"). In fact, this is precisely what happened to me on Friday night. If a cop arrests you for "disobeying an officer" then I guess you can go to jail and/or court and fight it later with "but it's illegal or unconstitutional (US or NH) for the cop to order me to do X," but you've already been arrested by that point - you're time has already been stolen from you (the arrest and the court trial).

[Lloyd Danforth]

Great thread everyone, and I really appreciate the feedback. I've never been in a situation like that before, and even talking with others here about non-cooperation was different when I was in the situation with three beefy cops who were confrontational. I agree that I could do with some education and practice in how to handle this type of situation better. I was given a summons for "Transporting Alcoholic Beverages," and have a court date of 1/15/09. Mike will detail his tickets and summons.

BTW, he had a great idea a few months back to role play and practice these type of situations, and I can really see the value of that now. Mahalo to everyone, especially MT Porcupine3 for calling me back and checking up on us.

You seemed so much braver and so much more  in control with Merle

[MaineShark]

I think this was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but one response a cop can give to "am I required to obey you?" is "yes you are." And one response to "what is the law which requires me to answer your question?" is "disobeying an officer." The first response, "yes you are required to obey," might be made by a cop just because they're an ass, but seems easy enough to me to disregard because you can ask about the specific law requiring you to obey. But the 2nd response seems very tough to ignore because it's so vague and tyrannical (like "contempt of court"). In fact, this is precisely what happened to me on Friday night. If a cop arrests you for "disobeying an officer" then I guess you can go to jail and/or court and fight it later with "but it's illegal or unconstitutional (US or NH) for the cop to order me to do X," but you've already been arrested by that point - you're time has already been stolen from you (the arrest and the court trial).

That's why asking for the RSA actually can work.  "What law says that?" gives them the opportunity to make up whatever they want.  "What RSA says that?" puts them into a "what is the letter of the law?" mode.  It also tells them that you know your rights, without you actually having to say so.

"Disobeying an officer" relates to physical actions, like not leaving a crime scene if ordered.  They cannot use it to interrogate you.  If they're going to arrest you on that, they were going to arrest you anyway.  I can't imagine them trying to take that to trial, and swearing under oath that they made a blatantly-false arrest.

If all else fails, and they seem determined to arrest you, anyway, you can also demand that they read you your rights.  Might remind them of something...

Joe

[Mike Barskey]

"Disobeying an officer" relates to physical actions, like not leaving a crime scene if ordered.  They cannot use it to interrogate you.  If they're going to arrest you on that, they were going to arrest you anyway.  I can't imagine them trying to take that to trial, and swearing under oath that they made a blatantly-false arrest.

What's the RSA that says that a cop can only use "disobeying an officer" for a physical action, and not for interrogating me?

Also, what are some resources some of you use to look up these RSAs? I'd also like to learn how to find out what the penalties are for not following different kinds of laws.

[MaineShark]

"Disobeying an officer" relates to physical actions, like not leaving a crime scene if ordered.  They cannot use it to interrogate you.  If they're going to arrest you on that, they were going to arrest you anyway.  I can't imagine them trying to take that to trial, and swearing under oath that they made a blatantly-false arrest.

What's the RSA that says that a cop can only use "disobeying an officer" for a physical action, and not for interrogating me?

The Fifth Amendment

Also, what are some resources some of you use to look up these RSAs? I'd also like to learn how to find out what the penalties are for not following different kinds of laws.

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/indexes/default.html

The "Search" and "Browse" links are the important ones.

For example: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/xxi/265/265-4.htm describes "Disobeying and Officer" (relative to driving), and the only thing they can demand that you answer is: "name, address, date of birth, and the name and address of the owner of such vehicle"

Not relative to driving, "594:2 Questioning and Detaining Suspects. – A peace officer may stop any person abroad whom he has reason to suspect is committing, has committed or is about to commit a crime, and may demand of him his name, address, business abroad and where he is going."  Notice that they can only stop you (demand that you not leave) if they have reason to suspect criminal activity.  That's why the first question you always ask is, "am I free to go?"  Even if you (for some reason) want to stay and chat, you need to ask that, so you know if you are "required" to answer their questions, or if they are just chatting with you.

Because they often just "chat" with you until you say something that implicates you in some obscure crime (doesn't have to prove that you committed a crime - just give them what the courts call "reasonable, articulable suspicion or belief"), and then they get to start demanding things of you.

You have all sorts of rights, and in order to maintain the illusion of their legitimacy, they have to pretend that they respect your rights.  So they play on your ignorance and get you to ignore your own rights.  "Am I free to go?" should be the first thing out of your mouth if an officer asks you to stop.  If they say that you are not, then ask them why you are being detained, and maybe what crime they think you committed.  Don't use the word stopped, or questioned, or anything else.  Point out to them subtly that you know this is a "detention," and might know the legal standards involved.

Read all of Chapter 594: http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lix/594/594-mrg.htm

Since they like to arrest activists, activists should know that one pretty well, in order to know what is and isn't a lawful arrest.

Joe

[Mike Barskey]

Thanks. I'm studying now.