Seeing people OD

[highline]

  I went to that LEO forum from a link at freekeene forum already. I think you handled you self great and made excellent points , but I think you're wasting your time in LEO forums if you're spending a lot of time trying to change their minds ... better to plant a few seeds and move on instead of getting their panties in a bunch... hard to win the hearts and minds of people you spend time fighting with .. and even though you're not fighting them , they are fighting you. You message is much more powerful given to the general public IMO .

I think you are absolutely right. Thanks for the criticism.

I used to have a bunch of cop friends ..

Me too.

[Praeteridiot]

I'm good with that, except the drug part.  As a former EMT I have seen to many kids OD on heavy drugs and have friends who have OD'd on drugs and are no longer the person they once were.  One guy I went to school with that was an honors student now has the mental capacity of a 5 year old because of an OD.  Don't get me wrong, although I've never tried any type of illegal drugs, I don't have a problem with people lighting up a joint if it is not impacting others.  I believe that the reason Ron Paul wasn't considered a likely candidate by the news outlets is because so many people have seen the adverse affects of drug use and think that suggesting legalizing everything is an insane proposal.

"legalize everything" IS an insane proposal, politically.  Even Ron Paul tried in the debates to shy away from any notion of "lemme show you how crazy I can sound" when he kept his point on to legalizing pot first.  I'm not sure that this is why the news outlets specifically ignored him, but tomato, potato.  It is and would be intellectually dishonest of anyone to imply that legalizing drugs would remove the negative consequences of use and abuse itself.  How much less dead is a kid who OD'd if the drugs are legal?  Not enough to count, really.

The problem as I've seen it and when I've talked to people about it, is that I end up along the lines of "No, I don't think a someone should throw their lives away to crack/meth/heroin, but if they want to, then that's their choice."  This isn't a problem because it's wrong but because it sounds horrible like the typical heartless libertarian and does nothing to address a big concern in regards to legalization.  Perhaps an overblown one for all the reasons that are obvious on this forum, but still a genuine concern with some people. 

I don't think the end of prohibition would also coincide with the end of any marketing campaigns designed to address what people should and should not put into their body for a price.  There'll still be "don't do drugs, kids" type of programs, I'm sure.

[KBCraig]

As far as your using the child porn thing as a victimless crime , the walmart example was weak in that it was not true child porn and to suggest that there is no victim for possessing the real thing it is beyond my understanding ... how does a 4 or 6 year old consent to be photographed in a sexual manner ?

Ah, but there's the problem: what is "true child porn" and what is "a sexual manner"?

As I said on that freekeene thread, people have been prosecuted and put through CPS hell trying to keep their kids or get their kids back, over things like the Wal-Mart bathtub pics. Much child "porn" doesn't involve any sexual activity or suggestiveness, merely nudity. If a perv wanks off over the Sunday advertising that shows kids in their underwear, is that child a victim?

[CJS]

As far as your using the child porn thing as a victimless crime , the walmart example was weak in that it was not true child porn and to suggest that there is no victim for possessing the real thing it is beyond my understanding ... how does a 4 or 6 year old consent to be photographed in a sexual manner ?

Ah, but there's the problem: what is "true child porn" and what is "a sexual manner"?

As I said on that freekeene thread, people have been prosecuted and put through CPS hell trying to keep their kids or get their kids back, over things like the Wal-Mart bathtub pics. Much child "porn" doesn't involve any sexual activity or suggestiveness, merely nudity. If a perv wanks off over the Sunday advertising that shows kids in their underwear, is that child a victim?

First . I hope I did't come off like a troll with that post , I was asking a fair question IMO . I don't always come across well in cyberland.

I agree you about the abuse by CPS all over the country , I have know too many women / couples who have had their lives destroyed by overzealous bureaucrats.Those agencies have way to much power and get away with murder ..... almost no oversight for them here in Socialist Illinois ..I mean it's for the children right ? I am scared to start a family in this place.

I asked Brad a pretty specific question , I tried to take grandma's bathtub pics out of the equation . Again I hope Brad did not feel like i was attacking him , he stands up for what he believes in at personal risk have real respect for that.

As far as what is porn ... we probably feel the print ad pics in the Sunday paper are innocuous , but my convicted child rapist neighbor finds them very stimulating .. so there is great big can of worms there . I was curious how possessing child porn is a victimless crime .

KBCraig I have read enough of your posts / threads to know you would not support some one walking around with a photo album of abused kids.

I hate when I hijack a good thread.

[KBCraig]

CJS, you're quite right when it comes to an identifiable victim. But to be honest, on a philosophical level, I understand what highline was saying: someone possessing child abuse porn isn't automatically guilty of child sexual abuse, any more than someone possessing a snuff film is automatically guilty of murder.

Both are disgusting and worthy of societal condemnation, but possessing pictures of something is not the same as committing the actual act. Thank goodness, because I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations hasn't passed on those Faces Of Death videos we watched in college back in the '80s.

[highline]

I asked Brad a pretty specific question , I tried to take grandma's bathtub pics out of the equation . Again I hope Brad did not feel like i was attacking him , he stands up for what he believes in at personal risk have real respect for that.

No, not at all. It was a fair question and I did ask for critique

And thanks. It is hard to stand up for principle when principle appears to support disgusting behavior.

[CJS]

And thanks. It is hard to stand up for principle when principle appears to support disgusting behavior.

Brad I have been outspoken about issues of personal freedom in Illinois most my life , so I know what it is to be ostracized by my peers . Love to buy you a beer when I make it to HN.

I meant what I said about respecting the risks you are taking with your career to speak out against the disgusting W/O/D .. which is nothing more than babysitting adults who should be free to live their own lives . 

........someone possessing child abuse porn isn't automatically guilty of child sexual abuse, any more than someone possessing a snuff film is automatically guilty of murder.

Great analogy . I said it's a huge can of worms ... but still feel actual photo's of children being raped hold no artist value and if me wanting that to be prohibited some how makes me evil I can live with that . I wonder how this kind of thing would be dealt with in a volunteer society.

I can't believe how many things I have had a change of heart over because of this forum. To be able to actually discuss hot topics in a civil manner is not readily available to me where I live. While I am still on the fence about some a few ideas most of those here hold, I am more free in my heart and mind than ever and it feels great .

I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations hasn't passed on those Faces Of Death videos we watched in college back in the '80s.

A lot of those films were set up , think about it .If you and I were near a pond , both with video equipment .. why would one of us film the other camera man during an alligator attack instead of filming the attack .. but again .. a very good point .

[highline]

Brad I have been outspoken about issues of personal freedom in Illinois most my life , so I know what it is to be ostracized by my peers . Love to buy you a beer when I make it to HN.

I stopped drinking almost a half year ago........... But I love cranberry juice.

I meant what I said about respecting the risks you are taking with your career to speak out against the disgusting W/O/D .. which is nothing more than babysitting adults who should be free to live their own lives . 

Thanks. As much as this whole ordeal stinks, I don't doubt that a large amount of people are hearing about LEAP for the first time because of it.

We all that believe in liberty have to suffer for proposing change. My punishment is professionally.

Great analogy . I said it's a huge can of worms ... but still feel actual photo's of children being raped hold no artist value and if me wanting that to be prohibited some how makes me evil I can live with that . I wonder how this kind of thing would be dealt with in a volunteer society.

You see I think the can of worms is on the opposite end..... where the government is allowed the imprison people for simply holding an object.

Child pornography is indeed disgusting.

[AntonLee]

I would prefer to continue to be able to consider whatever it is that draws my eye and makes me think to continue to remain art. 

Let me be perfectly clear, you nor anyone have any right to harm another human being based on the possessions they have.  You absolutely should be able to confront, speak out, advertise, and ostrasize those who's behavior disgusts you.  Art, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.  Feel free to state that the Mona Lisa, the Arch of Titus, and the video of a guy having sex with a child are not art.  Feel free to cry from the rooftops about how evil and wrong those things are. 

Do not put people in jail for what they consider art.  I find child pornography to be the most vile and disgusting trash to ever be put to tape or print.  The owners of such filth I do not do business with.  If they crawled to my door looking for table scraps I'd set them in a shovel and toss them as I do snow on my stairs. 

If I had friends who supported their private use of child porn, they would no longer be friends.  If I had associates that did business with them, they would cease being my associates.  The same would go for those that would harm a person who was merely in possession of something others found disgusting.

would it be better for a man who possesses child porn to use the morals of others to make them starve on a voluntary basis or would it be better to steal and imprison others in order for you to punish them in a jail cell?

I'd rather see them starve in the dead of cold instead of stealing from myself, my family, and friends to satisfy some bullshit bureaucracy.

[highline]

I would prefer to continue to be able to consider whatever it is that draws my eye and makes me think to continue to remain art. 

Let me be perfectly clear, you nor anyone have any right to harm another human being based on the possessions they have.  You absolutely should be able to confront, speak out, advertise, and ostrasize those who's behavior disgusts you.  Art, of course, is in the eye of the beholder.  Feel free to state that the Mona Lisa, the Arch of Titus, and the video of a guy having sex with a child are not art.  Feel free to cry from the rooftops about how evil and wrong those things are. 

Do not put people in jail for what they consider art.  I find child pornography to be the most vile and disgusting trash to ever be put to tape or print.  The owners of such filth I do not do business with.  If they crawled to my door looking for table scraps I'd set them in a shovel and toss them as I do snow on my stairs. 

If I had friends who supported their private use of child porn, they would no longer be friends.  If I had associates that did business with them, they would cease being my associates.  The same would go for those that would harm a person who was merely in possession of something others found disgusting.

would it be better for a man who possesses child porn to use the morals of others to make them starve on a voluntary basis or would it be better to steal and imprison others in order for you to punish them in a jail cell?

I'd rather see them starve in the dead of cold instead of stealing from myself, my family, and friends to satisfy some bullshit bureaucracy.

+1

[CJS]

 Anton , TY for your post .. both polite and introspective .

I am on the fence about never jailing any one ever.... the concept is beyond me right now. For the record , I have been jailed in Cook County lock up .. would not wish a week there on an enemy.

  I wish non violent people could made restitution instead rotting in a cage , as the thought of almost half a million non violent offenders imprisoned right now makes me ill .. then add the tax money needed to feed that monster and my head explodes.

  Not wanting to start a never ending debate with any one .... is ostracism enough for a serial rapist ? What does a volunteer society do with truly violent people ? Teach me bud.

[highline]

I am on the fence about never jailing any one ever.... the concept is beyond me right now. For the record , I have been jailed in Cook County lock up .. would not wish a week there on an enemy.

There are some people who are just too dangerous to be roaming around, in my opinion. Although in a free society one would be able to use deadly force easier to defend themselves, I still believe imprisonment would be necessary.

I'd imagine that private protection services would offer this as a service if someone infringes your property, or person.

The private protection agency would have authority, or justification to act against anyone who acted against you.

Where I'd imagine it gets tricky is if someone files a complaint with their protection service and it is opposing a cross complaint from another individual and their protection service.

[Heatman]

Wow, a lot of good arguments.  I really like threads where people aren't afraid to speak their mind.  I understand where you are coming from and I see your point.  Believe it or not, I agree with the majority of the arguments that you have given.  I guess the thing that upsets me the most is seeing people OD and once they are a vegetable, they become wards of the state and the taxpayers pay for the medical care and diaper changes for the rest of their life.  I am not for excessive laws.  The ones like "do not kill", "do not steal", etc... are good, but I am very opposed to gun control.  I think everyone who is of sane mind should have a gun.  Those that are dumb enough to try something stupid will think twice before risking being eliminated from the gene pool.  On another note, if you look at a country like Yemen, where 90% of the men chew Khat, it has reduced the productivity of the country.  (for more info on this, go to:   http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1917685,00.html  )  I suppose it depends on the person.  Some people will use stuff without being properly informed and end their life, and others will do their homework and use stuff in moderation.  As a person who has never tried any kind of illegal drugs, I guess I don't understand why people are so eager to use them.  By the way, I noticed I got a -1 karma.  Was it something I said?  I do agree with 98% of the stuff that is discussed in here, it is just the drug thing I am not 100% on board with....yet.

[thinkliberty]

.  By the way, I noticed I got a -1 karma.  Was it something I said?  I do agree with 98% of the stuff that is discussed in here, it is just the drug thing I am not 100% on board with....yet.

Some person(s) is down voting all posts. It happened over at freekeene and they turned off karma.

reddit has also recently had problems like this (see: http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/9efxf/an_explanation_of_why_the_atheism_reddit_does_not/)

Don't pay attention to - karma on the internet, unless you are trolling.  Then you can use it as a gauge of how many people you piss off.  Some message boards have competitions on how much negative karma they can get or give by writing scripts,  but some people are neurotic and will visit a web forum just to down vote posts.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I stopped drinking almost a half year ago........... But I love cranberry juice.

You quit drinking and then started hanging out with Free Staters? What the Hell kind of planning is that?
It is the other way around, for most people.