Seth on Anarchists

[Jim Johnson]

If there is some one/group within the fsp doing this counterfeiting, I will bet that this is not an isolated incident.  Others of us may be getting cheated. 

If it was an isolated incident, i.e. this type of thing happens between business entities and the Liberty movement, it may be an attempt to discredit the fsp in the eyes of the Crown Plaza. 

We should all guard against this type of thing.

It is very unfortunate and shameful that the first thing that happened was finger pointing.

[SethCohn]

Seth. Do you have proof or not?

Lloyd:

1) The organizers (and Kate has here too), including Tammy, Christa, and Dreepa, all confirmed the facts of someone forging lunch tickets.  Those calling for 'proof' of that are deniers, not actually wanting 'proof'.  Nobody, including me, ever claimed we knew who did it.  The likelihood of someone forging meal tickets and still paying for the rest of the conference is slight, you'll agree?  So who is more likely to have done so?  I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

2) I raised the issue of one person, directly publicly involved in Alt-Expo, who entered a room they hadn't paid to listen to, a room _filled_ with folks who did pay for that privilege.   Since access were checked at the door, they entered via an unlocked door after the event started. They were asked to leave after some time, meaning organizers had to notice it, know them, know they weren't on the paid list, go look it up to confirm it, and then spend the time/energy to ask them to leave.  I asked if that was theft or fraud on the above thread, and sadly, some people defended it.   I asked what folks would do if they knew who it was, before I named their name, in other words, to avoid personal issues about friendships/excusing the behavior/etc.   I can name this person, and another organizer can confirm this happened (and was the one who did take action).  Nobody answered this question, because they know it would put them on the spot to follow thru, and they aren't willing to take that sort of stance, perhaps because they feel better about defending the fraud/theft than condemning it and having to deal with the fallout.

3) Charles admitted on the above thread that he _saw_ someone who was taking food who was told he was not permitted to do so, do so repeatedly after being told that.  He witnessed the event, outright theft IMHO, and admits he did nothing, since it was not his 'job' to do so.  Is that ethical?  Isn't it the responsibility of good individuals to back up the person who is tasked with _privately_ preventing theft (ie the volunteer), and ensuring the community (ie the rest of us) makes clear to all that theft is wrong?  Isn't that property rights? Is it ok to watch someone else openly stealing and say and do nothing?  I think not. 

So Lloyd, all 3 have 'proof', what now?

If I am a 'bigot', then I wear that label with pride.  If I'm a 'bigot' against those who won't show personal responsibility, against those who defend fraud and theft amongst their 'friends', then frankly, I'm fine with those people calling me a bigot and avoiding me as a result.  I don't want them near me in the first place, because I'll likely have to watch my own back from them some day.  Better to avoid them getting close now then wondering why I'm missing food or other property I expected to be safe around them, which they felt is justifiably stolen in some circumstances because my guard was down, and _I_ should have known better and locked it away from them better.

If you disagree and are ok with theft and fraud, please feel free to let me know, so I can avoid you too.

[SethCohn]

If Seth expects Jack to be responsible for ALL anarchists behavior, blah blah blah

Except I didn't.  You completely ignored what I've said multiple times now is the point:
Jack hosted the event.  Jack hosted an _educational_ event.  Jack took on the responsibility for that task when he put on the event.  What responsibility?  To help educate his guests.  He's not responsible for their actions, and I never said he was.  But when I approached him and ask him to help openly condemn such behaviors because (odds are, demographically, which he denied immediately and vehemently) the person was one of his guests at some point that weekend, he refused to take that responsibility: to help educate and thus prevent future happenings like that.  What is sad is how _other_ 'anarchists' also deny that anything wrong was even done.  They have defended it, even worse.

I didn't ask him to police, I didn't ask him to track down the troublemaker, all I began asking was he help educate and condemn such actions, if was done by one of his guests.  He got upset that I felt it was done by one of his guests, and the conversation fell apart right there...

[Lloyd Danforth]

Seth. Do you have proof or not?

Lloyd:

1) The organizers (and Kate has here too), including Tammy, Christa, and Dreepa, all confirmed the facts of someone forging lunch tickets.  Those calling for 'proof' of that are deniers, not actually wanting 'proof'.  Nobody, including me, ever claimed we knew who did it.  The likelihood of someone forging meal tickets and still paying for the rest of the conference is slight, you'll agree?  So who is more likely to have done so?  I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Someone off the street.  Your last sentence lends credence to your being a bigot.

[SethCohn]

Someone off the street.  Your last sentence lends credence to your being a bigot.

Someone off the street wouldn't have access to the tickets to begin with, to photocopy one.  So please explain that logic.  That's the worst part of this: it takes likely _2_ to commit this fraud. (Or someone with a valid ticket being stolen from to begin with, making the forger a thief twice over.)

Occam's razor applies.  Yes, it could have been a federal narc, intent on discrediting the anarchist movement here in NH through sowing seeds of discord via forging lunch tickets.  Somehow, I think not.  But what do I know, I'm just a bigot.

[thinkliberty]

  But when I approached him and ask him....  He got upset that I felt it was done by one of his guests, and the conversation fell apart right there...

Did you calm down before you talked to him or were you angry?

Did you "ask" Jack nicely or did you accuse him?  If you asked him nicely why would he get upset? Jack seems like a nice guy to me.

If an emotional guy accuses me or my friends of something I don't know about then tells me to take responsibility to educate everyone else,  I believe the "conversation" or witch hunt would fall apart right there.

You had a stressful job and the stress got to you, you're human. You needed to do something about a bad thing that was happening and didn't have a plan on how to handle it. You responded emotionally instead of rationally, like most people do when they don't have a plan.

It's obviously not cool that people made fake food passes, but there is a better way to handle things like this.

[dalebert]

Kate, everything you said sounds reasonable.  You're not resorting to collectivism like Seth.  Those things must be incredibly frustrating for forum staff.  I think people really need to read that whole thread and read what the people actually wrote instead of hearing it filtered through Seth's prejudices.  They didn't condone any of it; merely pointed out that it's a frustrating reality of large events, but all you have to do is read what they wrote to get that before Seth's distorts it in follow-up posts to fuel his prejudices.

Seth has a beef with Alt Expo, a chip on his shoulder.  He was being condescending about the Alt Expo in personal conversation with me when the NHLF had barely gotten started.

I said I agreed with Russell about talking to specific people who you know are guilty because you saw them-- entering a restricted event or eating food without a ticket, even ostracizing them if they won't make good.  Judge the individuals; not groups.  Seth is using the laundry list of various offenses to promote his prejudices and doing it in a way that's incredibly divisive.  I have repeatedly said that my opposition to fraud and theft is part of the foundation of why I'm an anarchist.  Now who else will publicly denounce Seth's behavior?

[ny2nh]

Occam's razor applies.  Yes, it could have been a federal narc, intent on discrediting the anarchist movement here in NH through sowing seeds of discord via forging lunch tickets. 

OMG - it must have been me! 

[SethCohn]

They didn't condone any of it;

As someone put to me privately (because like so many controversial threads, few want to draw fire so they agree privately, but know that to speak up only makes them targets.  I have never minded being the visible target.):

"I nearly died when George said it's ok that people ate without paying....he lost his side of the argument right there"

Perhaps you need to let go of your own prejudices, Dale, and read what people actually _said_.
Not what you think they said.

I've supported AltExpo in the past, and Jack personally in a number of his projects as well, giving both time and money.  I also am realistic about the ways AltExpo is good and bad in the bigger context of LF (and PF for that matter), and have dealt with both sides as a neighbor of it, an organizer, a supporter of it, and more.  In other words, it's far from black and white. 

I've also been very supportive of plenty of folks without enough resources to pay their own way.
I recall offering tent sleeping space during one PF to a certain guy who went on to become quite a good cartoonist.  So if you want to fool yourself into thinking otherwise, and thinking I'm a bigot, you go right ahead.  I'm not losing sleep over it.

[AntonLee]

someone saw someone who was not authorized to eat food eating.  Let's name some names.  Who was trying to cheat the Liberty Forum?  I'm assuming all that proof is there that they're connected to AltExpo, anarchism, etc. . . . so who????

[ny2nh]

Charles Johnson was the one who posted that someone was eating off the buffet, asked to stop because they had no ticket, and continued to get food from the buffet....or something along those lines. The photocopied tickets - I don't know who the hell it was because the staff at the hotel were the ones who reported it to us - and how would they know who was who?

I could care less if it was an anarchist or not - taking things, whether it was food or attending a session, that you know you did not pay for is just wrong. Isn't it?

[MengerFan]

Maybe someone had their tickets in a bag, which was required as a puke receptacle. Perhaps there was no one available at the reception area at the time, so he copied a buddy's tickets. Perhaps he hasn't seen these threads and realized that they should say something.

I had ten meal tickets left over in my room. I am sure there were others. One or two forgeries should not be something to get excited about, since the perp is unknown and cannot be questioned.

[ny2nh]

Jason - I would agree that there were enough unused meal tickets to cover it - but that wasn't the point I guess. I would like to see a way for people to donate back their meals to the FSP next year so that we're really only paying for what people are actually eating.

I would like to think that people are just more honest and trustworthy than they are sometimes. Just the other night at Murphy's, someone walked out and didn't pay their bill. The waitstaff can;t ask for a credit card up front to cover their ass....because people get offended because they are freestaters, blah blah blah...so the waitresses instead end up paying people's food bill because the person left without paying. It's just frustrating that people act this way. 

[SethCohn]

Maybe someone had their tickets in a bag, which was required as a puke receptacle.
Perhaps there was no one available at the reception area at the time, so he copied a buddy's tickets. Perhaps he hasn't seen these threads and realized that they should say something.

Jason, that's a big whatif.  If you are saying that is what really happened, say so.  Otherwise, that's a huge myth to create a plausible whatif.  Again, occam's razor.

I had ten meal tickets left over in my room. I am sure there were others. One or two forgeries should not be something to get excited about, since the perp is unknown and cannot be questioned.

A little bit of theft is ok, among friend and coworkers, is that your point?  I'm really amazed at all of the folks who have piped up defending whomever this was, trying to make it ok, either this time, or in general.

No, it is no longer the point of a meal ticket here or there (LF survived regardless) For me, it is about the fact that someone did that, who and how people have reacted to that... the apologists truly cause my mouth to drop - I wouldn't have expected it from liberty activists to defend fraud/theft the way they have.  I'm shocked at the defenses that absolve the criminal and blame anyone but, or deny a crime happened.  Yes, there was a victim: LF was taken from, in some measure, of what others paid freely for the same item.

[AntonLee]

Charles Johnson was the one who posted that someone was eating off the buffet, asked to stop because they had no ticket, and continued to get food from the buffet....or something along those lines. The photocopied tickets - I don't know who the hell it was because the staff at the hotel were the ones who reported it to us - and how would they know who was who?

I could care less if it was an anarchist or not - taking things, whether it was food or attending a session, that you know you did not pay for is just wrong. Isn't it?

of course it was wrong, just because it's a wrong thing to do.  I also agree that it doesn't matter if it was an anarchist or not, it was  wr wrwrwr WRONG.

It's also wrong to accuse a group of people of being the culprits without clear proof doesn't it?  I'd find it just as detestable if some minarchists were confronted in the same manner.   Seth is right, whoever did this was wrong to do it.  It'd be great if someone could step forward and warn us about INDIVIDUALS who steal.  I don't care if they're anarchists, statists, minarchists, or martians.