Seth on Anarchists

[MengerFan]

"Compared to what?"
Is the question missing in this lunacy.

A simple cost benefit analysis should reveal that a little theft is no big deal compared to the effort required to find the culprit or even to a make a public tirade against folks who aren't interested in joining the witch hunt.

I'm a little bummed out that you haven't yet also lost respect for me. But maybe you never had any, so that's cool.

[Fluff and Stuff]

Charles Johnson was the one who posted that someone was eating off the buffet, asked to stop because they had no ticket, and continued to get food from the buffet....or something along those lines.

I asked a person to not use the buffet without a ticket, several times.  I asked him to go to the registration desk.  He didn't  and instead used the buffet.  However, I think he was the last person in line (there hadn't been a line for sometime at this point) and was an invited speaker at the event.  Maybe he was supposed to have a ticket but never got one.  Maybe he lost his ticket.  Maybe he was never supposed to be given a ticket for speaking.  Any which way about it, it wasn't that big a deal and I really don't care.

Everyone on these forums could stop making such a big deal out of all of the minor details.  Although, I'd rather people not because they are quite funny, especially the stuff Seth, Dale and George post.

And to add to the details, when someone reserves a room, they are supposed to tell the hotel how many people will stay in the room.  If additional people are going to end up sleeping in the room, the hotel should be told, even if it means additionally money for the hotel room.  Having 5 people in a hotel room if you told the hotel that only 2 people would be in it, well, that is likely stealing.  I'm not saying anyone around here would do such a horrible thing, I'm just starting a possible rumor because it is fun watching people argue about such things.  Anyone care to guess if someone did this?  Who did it?  More than one night (because it is a new crime each night)?

[MengerFan]

Keith, do hookers count toward the room limit? What if there were only one alive at any given time?

[dalebert]

I could care less if it was an anarchist or not - taking things, whether it was food or attending a session, that you know you did not pay for is just wrong. Isn't it?

Obviously.  And no one knows the individuals responsible.  If we did, we could do something.  We don't.  Frustrating, but that's the reality.  Given that, do you not see that Seth's prejudiced reaction, his ultimatums, his sweeping judgments of groups of people, along with the acquiescence of other staff involved has created an incredible divisiveness?  I submit that this is bad for the NHLF into the future.  So far many of those who have spoken up about being offended by Seth are people who registered, myself included, and financially supported the forum this year or were guests.  I heard Keith speak up and say Seth's argument was silly.  Other than that, I haven't heard much to give me the impression that his opinion about us is isolated.  In fact, he contends that lots of people secretly agree with him.

If there are all these organizers of the NHLF who share Seth's attitude about anarchists, then do you see why we might be disinclined to support the NHLF in the future, particularly with our dollars?  Seth has some pretty mixed up logic, some prejudice for sure, but so far I have no reason to believe he's a liar.  I'm beginning to accept what he said-- that there is in fact all this gossip going on behind my back that other anarchists and I support theft and fraud and anarchists in general at the NHLF are moochers and so on.

I wasn't about to stop supporting the NHLF over the anthem.  That seems silly to me.  But the above?  That would make me stop supporting it for sure.  Maybe that's what they want.  I shelled out $200, bought raffle tickets, spoke enthusiastically about the forum on FTL, and encouraged lots of friends to come in one-on-ones, but I bet a lot of you would be glad if we pulled our support and maybe you'll get your wish.  Seth could be right and maybe you're not getting enough money from us moochers to be worth the trouble of treating us with respect.  I have no idea what proportion of members were anarchists.  Maybe it's only a tiny fraction.  My speech here and on the FSP forum is not getting anywhere, so let the market sort it out.  Next year I'll speak with my dollars.

See how nice I was, saying this here instead of on the FSP forum where potential new signers are more likely to see it?

P.S. Just an FYI to Ian, I'm not about to talk down about the NHLF on FTL.  I think they're a paid sponsor and that would be unprofessional.  I'll just bite my tongue from now on when the subject comes up, at least while I'm on the air.

[JonM]

People who steal suck.

People who steal from their friends suck even more.

People who steal aren't anarchists, constitutionalists, minarchists, voluntaryists, or  any other apolitical or political designation ending with ist.  They are THIEVES.   They are freeloaders who clearly have wandered into the wrong crowd and would perhaps be more at home with the Free Lunch Project instead.

Is it OK to take a person's silver because she is not guarding it effectively?  If a theft is easy to accomplish, is it then not really a theft?

[Fluff and Stuff]

I heard Keith speak up and say Seth's argument was silly. 

You are a silly person.  Arguing with Seth on the internet?  Don't take anything Seth says on the internet serious.  Seriously, have you not been paying attention the last several years?

[dalebert]

Jon, I can't really blame you for not reading my post and completely missing the point.  I got a bit long-winded.

[Friday]

I could care less if it was an anarchist or not - taking things, whether it was food or attending a session, that you know you did not pay for is just wrong. Isn't it?

Obviously.  And no one knows the individuals responsible.  If we did, we could do something.  We don't.  Frustrating, but that's the reality.  Given that, do you not see that Seth's prejudiced reaction, his ultimatums, his sweeping judgments of groups of people, along with the acquiescence of other staff involved has created an incredible divisiveness?  I submit that this is bad for the NHLF into the future.  So far many of those who have spoken up about being offended by Seth are people who registered, myself included, and financially supported the forum this year or were guests.  I heard Keith speak up and say Seth's argument was silly.  Other than that, I haven't heard much to give me the impression that his opinion about us is isolated.  In fact, he contends that lots of people secretly agree with him.

Dale, I read all of this thread and most of the one on the FSP forum, and I didn't interpret what Seth said as "anarchists are bad", "anarchists suck", or anything like that.  It looks like several people are feeling offended and disrespected now, which can put a powerful slant on how/if a person interprets/listens to what another person actually said.

Honestly, I don't read all of this as an attempt to create divisiveness between anarchists and non-anarchists.  I hope you won't interpret any particular person's failure to publicly call Seth out as anarchist-bashing. 

[Lloyd Danforth]

Charles Johnson was the one who posted that someone was eating off the buffet, asked to stop because they had no ticket, and continued to get food from the buffet....or something along those lines. The photocopied tickets - I don't know who the hell it was because the staff at the hotel were the ones who reported it to us - and how would they know who was who?

I could care less if it was an anarchist or not - taking things, whether it was food or attending a session, that you know you did not pay for is just wrong. Isn't it?

Yes

[SethCohn]

"Compared to what?"
Is the question missing in this lunacy.

A simple cost benefit analysis should reveal that a little theft is no big deal compared to the effort required to find the culprit or even to a make a public tirade against folks who aren't interested in joining the witch hunt.

I'm a little bummed out that you haven't yet also lost respect for me. But maybe you never had any, so that's cool.

Jason, for one thing, I was not calling for a witch hunt, ever.  Nor was I even calling for 'finding the culprit.'  Asking folks who have put themselves into positions of respect, as educators/speakers/leaders/etc/etc, to help prevent this in the _future_ by decrying it?  That has a good cost/benefit ratio:  if people who attend hear repeatedly that the community frowns on fraud/theft, they will be less likely to do it, right?  That only works if people who educate make the point and discuss the issue openly.

Or is the only answer to insist we lock things down tighter, at the cost of making everyone suffer a bit, raise everyone's cost a bit, and know that in the long run, our community can't trust each other to do the right thing, so keep your hands on your wallet, your gun, your valuables?

You have a reputation for being very generous.  How would you feel if folks decided that your generosity was boundless, and starting just taking from you without your decision to give it first?  "Jason won't mind, he gives everything away, he's got lots, and I've got less, so let's just take it right now."  Where is the line crossed for you?  Yes, a _little_ theft might be unworthy of your time to pursue, but if you knew who was doing it, what would you do then?  What if you didn't know exactly who, but knew it was someone frequenting your party tent before and after, and so abusing your generosity?

[MengerFan]

Yeah, it happens all the time. I should think that folks would get a little tired of me if I pulled a Seth every time.

[Puke]

wow
i am glad i wasn't in the room when puke read that post

I had just woken up. 

[Puke]

Where did they get a photocopier any way?

[SethCohn]

Dale, I read all of this thread and most of the one on the FSP forum, and I didn't interpret what Seth said as "anarchists are bad", "anarchists suck", or anything like that.

And to be clear: I have not said anything like that. 

The biggest irony of all of Dale's writing is that he's saying "Hey, I supported LF financially, I helped make it a success.", and I agree: Dale (and folks like Dale) is not the problem here.  Dale's upset because I am pointing the finger at people who did NOT support the LF financially, who did the exact opposite: they robbed from the LF at least the cost of the service they did not pay for, and I am saying "I don't know who it was, but it's more likely someone who didn't support the LF financially otherwise, [or else it makes little sense (why support and then rip off the org you just supported?)] The biggest concentration of those individuals, considered demographically, were attendees at AltExpo", and he's offended that I make that claim, calling it bigoted.  I was in the AltExpo rooms overnight having an (very)late night conversation on Saturday night/Sunday Morning.  Clearly if I was so biased against them, I would have hung out elsewhere.  If I have pointed in a general direction, it's because that is a reality: more people who paid little to nothing to attend LF were in those rooms at some point or other, by design and intent of Jack and others, combined with the fact that they had less options since they hadn't paid for access to the LF rooms.  Why is this such a source of contention?  When did political correctness hit the anti-politicals?  That's as absurd as my claiming that the thief was probably a 'white caucasian male', given the gender and racial makeup of LF attendees, and being told that I'm being sexually and racially bigoted too.

[SethCohn]

Yeah, it happens all the time. I should think that folks would get a little tired of me if I pulled a Seth every time.

Wait, so you are saying that you get ripped off all the time, by folks in the liberty movement here in NH?
And you keep quiet about it?

Anyone else see the problem here? 
Anyone?  Bueller?  Bueller?

Anyone else wonder why we have repeat offenders like JPs and Ryans happen?  Maybe if folks 'pulled a Seth' more often, we'd help stop that?