Seth on Anarchists

[Tom Sawyer]

Isn't the thread "Seth on Anarchists"?

It's not, is stealing or fraud wrong?

As a side note if any of my annoying behavior gets to be too much... contact Jack and get him to straighten me out, he is my leader. 

The problem, I see again and again is the lens in which we view situations through. Some people can't help but see things in gang terms.

The "others" are the problem...

Seth is a friendly, funny, nice guy that likes to play the game... the underground came about as a consequence of his driving folks out of the big tent... the Alt Expo came about from the driving out and then attempting to recapture other folks.

Seth will never stop debating the points that he thinks he has a chance to win on... while often side stepping the core issues. And he enjoys the whole process.

[SethCohn]

Seth is a friendly, funny, nice guy that likes to play the game... the underground came about as a consequence of his driving folks out of the big tent... the Alt Expo came about from the driving out and then attempting to recapture other folks.

My take on the history of this is quite different (I was supportive of AltExpo#0 and other of Jack's efforts, including free hosting and support, and I hosted the Underground for some time, to help ensure it stayed up and running, for just a few examples) etc,

But since your take credits me with so much influence and power, who am I to argue? 

Seth will never stop debating the points that he thinks he has a chance to win on... while often side stepping the core issues. And he enjoys the whole process.

If you feel I'm sidestepping a core issue you see here, please clarify what you feel that is.  I feel that others has taken things far from what I began discussing this for in the first place, and where this has gone (and as I said, I'm quite shocked), so for me, those are _my_ core issues.

[Tom Sawyer]

Seth is a friendly, funny, nice guy that likes to play the game... the underground came about as a consequence of his driving folks out of the big tent... the Alt Expo came about from the driving out and then attempting to recapture other folks.

My take on the history of this is quite different (I was supportive of AltExpo#0 and other of Jack's efforts, including free hosting and support, and I hosted the Underground for some time, to help ensure it stayed up and running, for just a few examples) etc,

But since your take credits me with so much influence and power, who am I to argue? 

Seth will never stop debating the points that he thinks he has a chance to win on... while often side stepping the core issues. And he enjoys the whole process.

If you feel I'm sidestepping a core issue you see here, please clarify what you feel that is.  I feel that others has taken things far from what I began discussing this for in the first place, and where this has gone (and as I said, I'm quite shocked), so for me, those are _my_ core issues.

The freaking out and driving off came first (underground creation)... the hosting and and hanging out came next. The Alt Expo is an example of others doing the same thing.

The sidestepping is... instead of talking about 'The anarchist crowd did something wrong (I think)... 'take me to their leader.'  Lets pretend that someone has said that theft is ok.

In addition Seth you fancy yourself as the behind the scene "Wizard of Oz"... The only difference I've ever had with you makes me want to say dial the machivellian back a couple of clicks. You always came off to me as the nicer version of someone like CNHT... loves the conflict and in the confusion attempts to gain advantage.

[Friday]

Yeah, it happens all the time.

FWIW, when I was helping myself to a lovely engraved beer stein (not to mention many margaritas) in the Fun Tent at PorcFest '09, you asked me if I was an FTL AMPlifier. I said no. You said "You should be".  I went home and signed up, and AMPed for almost a year.

Apparently, MengerFan is my leader.   

[MengerFan]

Excellent, Friday. My plan is working.

[Silent_Bob]

Do we know how many tickets were sold versus how many were collected?

[porcupine kate]

I don't know.  I will try and find out.

[MengerFan]

Eowyn loves your avatar, Kate. Totally obsessed with HK. Kind of like me, except for a different kind of HK.

[John Shaw]

Seems to me that when someONE does you wrong, you make it public and move on. I've got nothing against warning other people about buttholes.

Of course, when that someone is a person you can't even identify, well, you say "I noticed someone did such and such, watch your property folks, there are assholes about."

And then you let it go. Turning the whole thing into yet another in a long line of anarchist/minarchist snipefests is well... Typical of course but still unsavory.

Blame the person, not the group. Otherwise people get to call you a collectivist.

Making a giant stink out of something is for babies and old people.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Yes.

[Russell Kanning]

I know Lloyd wasn't the culprit ... so I can hang out with him still.

[Lloyd Danforth]

I was busy stealing candy from children. The kids will back me up.

[SethCohn]

The sidestepping is... instead of talking about 'The anarchist crowd did something wrong (I think)... 'take me to their leader.'  Lets pretend that someone has said that theft is ok.

Sadly, a few someone's did on the other thread.  That was the jawdropping irony of this.

I never said 'the anarchist crowd did something wrong', nor 'take me to their leader', or even implied it.  And I really wonder why folks continue to think I did, since I've repeated this a few times now:

Someone (perhaps 2 someones) forged lunch tickets.  We don't know who.
Someone (we do know who) entered a talk (in this case the Napolitano talk) despite not paying the entrance fee.  They were asked to leave, because organizers knew they hadn't paid.
I talked to a few people when I discovered the forged ticket incident, this was after most of LF was over.  I approached Jack, and the others with him, specifically Darian of ALL, whom I knew had spoken at Alt-Expo.  My intent was to ask them to help prevent future theft, by promoting good memes (ie education, not policing) since they had a pulpit and 'students' (by their own voluntary choice to educate others), and sadly, the conversation blew up into something else, partly because of how they reacted to my wordings and tone.

In the subsequent discussions online, it's become clear there was more going on, though.
Some DID actually defend theft and fraud, as a general principle here, denying that it was a problem or crime, justifying it.  That is not my interpretation of it alone.

I never accused _all_ anarchists, or even said 'it was an anarchist, we know that much.', But denying that the likelihood is it was someone who went to AltExpo at some point in the course of the weekend is obtuse.

I never considered Jack or others to be a leader of the community.  An educator, yes.  Influential in that sense, yes.  But I know better than to expect that there is any recognized leadership.

And finally for me, the defense of theft/fraud changed the focus for me, and opened a new can of worms.  That was bigger than the original issue of forging or theft: people who felt it was ok it happened.  People who condoned and excused it.

In addition Seth you fancy yourself as the behind the scene "Wizard of Oz"... The only difference I've ever had with you makes me want to say dial the machivellian back a couple of clicks. You always came off to me as the nicer version of someone like CNHT... loves the conflict and in the confusion attempts to gain advantage.

I'm the nicer version of CNHT?  Wow. Ouch.  Not sure what advantage you think I gain, nor do I love the conflict.  As for the wizard of oz, since I've made the 'man behind the curtain' reference myself on this forum quite a few times, that's true.  Mostly when I was hosting the forum, and yet not active on it, for a variety of reasons.  Am I someone who works behind the scenes in the liberty movement?  Yes.  I do a lot of connecting people, trying to make things happen, assisting and some times instigating new things.  But I'm not really hidden, if anything I'm one of the more vocal, outspoken people, much to some people's dismay.  there are plenty of folks who truly hide behind the curtain, I'm really not one of them.  I'm disliked by some folks from all sides, and I'm ok with that.  Not everyone is.  I never fear opening my mouth, and speak my mind.  Not everyone does.  Not everyone like that.

As for anarchist/minarchist snipe fests, this was never about political philosophies to me.  it was about theft and fraud.  Yes, it turned into one and here's why:  I've seen many cases where 'the anarchists' hold a very calid moral/ethical high ground position over 'the minarchists.'  In this case, when I see anarchists defending theft/fraud (and NOT all anarchists, a select few, OK?), it's clear that something is wrong - they are giving up that high ground.  And that's sad to me.  I'm disappointed, I expected better.

[ny2nh]

I could probably find and post all sorts of numbers on how many meals were purchased, how many were eaten, etc....but honestly, it's a week ago now and while I wish I were still there enjoying a great time with friends of across the spectrum of views, I'm ready to put the issues / mistakes / problems / concerns away and instead focus on how things could be better going forward. I'll chalk up the tickets, the unpaid meals, and the behavior of some to just poor social skills...and I'll equally chalk up Seth's frustration (and frustration of others) to being tired and bothered after working so many, many hours and sometimes feeling like people are just screwing you over. Had I not been having such a good time, I might have found myself as annoyed as Seth was...and it would not have been pretty either. Instead, I consciously made the decision to wait until after LF and then post some of my concerns.....with the hopes that people maybe would realize that their actions were perhaps not the best and maybe they would not repeat them next year.

I would love to see more people participate financially next year - in some way. The main goal of LF is to attract more people to NH. Those of us here in NH have the added benefit of an opportunity to get together with other NH peeps and peeps who have not moved yet. Liberty Forum takes an immense amount of work and a lot of $$ to make it into what it is. Every year we try to step it up a notch somehow. It would be great if some of the folks who are at the hotel for say the AltExpo to maybe purchase a lunch or something next year (if that option is available). Or maybe AltExpo could buy advertising in the program? Contributing financially allows the FSP to reach out to one or more potential mover. That's the goal after all.

Maybe we can close this chapter now and move forward. Only 9,953 more signers to go....let's get on that.....

[Pat K]

Hey theres  a perfectly good fight going
on here, we not going to ruin it with logic
reason and good manners, are we?