Grafton ... top story

[Lex]

I'm sorry to say, but the only incentive I can think of is to avoid initiation of force. Not having the police and/or fire department drop in on your party is the main incentive.
....
A few of the calls that we've gotten for unpermitted burns where the person did have a permit is because the person issuing the permit didn't have a chance to submit the permit to Hanover dispatch yet.

It sounds like there is a good chance that the police and/or fire department will drop in on your party, even when you have a permit, so what's the point?

The chance is reduced significantly but not eliminated.

You could ask the person issuing you the permit when they will submit it to Hanover dispatch. You could probably even call dispatch and find out if your permit has been entered into their system, just don't call them when they are busy (a lot of calls going on at the same time) and make sure to let them know that it is not an emergency first thing when they pick up, they may put you on hold for a minute. I don't know for a fact if they can help you though, but may be worth a try.

The problem is likely to happen if you get a permit issued at 7pm and then you have a huge bon fire at 9pm. The chance that the person who issued your permit has had a chance to send it to dispatch and that dispatch has gotten your permit entered into the system is very small.

[AntonLee]

I never asked for a firetower to begin with.  If others want this service I'm sure someone could do the job a lot better than government.  The first selling point could be

"Choose XYZ FireWatch, we sit on the mountain and watch for fires even after 5pm!  Protect your property, protect your children, even after 5pm."

[Mike Barskey]

I'm sorry to say, but the only incentive I can think of is to avoid initiation of force. Not having the police and/or fire department drop in on your party is the main incentive.

Not only has Lex expressed a lot of reasons and excuses in favor of using force against peaceful people, he explicitly says that he thinks it is good "incentive" (i.e., that by threatening force, people will be incentivized to follow orders in orders to avoid that force). I'm done with this conversation.

[KBCraig]

Is my freedom of lesser importance than your benefit or convenience?

Just saying that some of us don't like being there unnecessarily. I didn't respond to the call to your place but I saw Bob in the video and he didn't look too happy to be there.

Of course he was unhappy, because he was there unnecessarily. And he knew it. He didn't get toned out by the eagle eyes in the fire tower; his evening was interrupted because the fire warden and Merle and Babiarz had a collective hard-on over a piece of paper, and couldn't open their eyes and see that there was no fire danger there that would be solved by a piece of magical fookin' paper.

Bob should have been unhappy with those three, not with Mike and Russell.

[Lex]

I never asked for a firetower to begin with.  If others want this service I'm sure someone could do the job a lot better than government.  The first selling point could be

"Choose XYZ FireWatch, we sit on the mountain and watch for fires even after 5pm!  Protect your property, protect your children, even after 5pm."

Nobody has stepped up to offer the service.

I guess it's not very glamorous job to sit and watch the woods all day and would require a lot of work getting insurance companies on board or getting town residents to subscribe. Even then it probably wouldn't pay much. Someone industrious enough to organize this sort of business would probably find other much more profitable and exciting business opportunities.

[Lex]

I'm sorry to say, but the only incentive I can think of is to avoid initiation of force. Not having the police and/or fire department drop in on your party is the main incentive.

Not only has Lex expressed a lot of reasons and excuses in favor of using force against peaceful people, he explicitly says that he thinks it is good "incentive" (i.e., that by threatening force, people will be incentivized to follow orders in orders to avoid that force). I'm done with this conversation.

If you were going to twist what I say and make things up why did you bother continue to converse?

I did not favor or condone force against peaceful people. I said that if you do not get a permit that this is what will likely happen. As is the case for just about anything that has to do with government, if you don't do what they want there is a chance force will be initiated. I'm stating a fact, not supporting it or saying that it's acceptable.

I think you are lying Mike.

[Lex]

Of course he was unhappy, because he was there unnecessarily. And he knew it. He didn't get toned out by the eagle eyes in the fire tower; his evening was interrupted because the fire warden and Merle and Babiarz had a collective hard-on over a piece of paper, and couldn't open their eyes and see that there was no fire danger there that would be solved by a piece of magical fookin' paper.

Bob should have been unhappy with those three, not with Mike and Russell.

Did Bob tell you he was unhappy with Mike and Russell?

[Lex]

I'm sorry to say, but the only incentive I can think of is to avoid initiation of force. Not having the police and/or fire department drop in on your party is the main incentive.

Not only has Lex expressed a lot of reasons and excuses in favor of using force against peaceful people, he explicitly says that he thinks it is good "incentive" (i.e., that by threatening force, people will be incentivized to follow orders in orders to avoid that force). I'm done with this conversation.

You are very good at twisting peoples words.

[thinkliberty]

I never asked for a firetower to begin with.  If others want this service I'm sure someone could do the job a lot better than government.  The first selling point could be

"Choose XYZ FireWatch, we sit on the mountain and watch for fires even after 5pm!  Protect your property, protect your children, even after 5pm."

Nobody has stepped up to offer the service.

I guess it's not very glamorous job to sit and watch the woods all day and would require a lot of work getting insurance companies on board or getting town residents to subscribe. Even then it probably wouldn't pay much. Someone industrious enough to organize this sort of business would probably find other much more profitable and exciting business opportunities.
...
I did not favor or condone force against peaceful people. I said that if you do not get a permit that this is what will likely happen.

No one volunteering to offer you a service that you want, is not an excuse for anyone to provide it with a barrel of a gun.

I guess that means you are agreeing that your government's fire watch system is unsustainable and something no one is willing to pay for without a gun being put to their head. 

That means your fire watch system needs to come to an end.  If you or anyone else wants a fire watch, you'll need to figure out a way to do it without using violence to get what you want.   

I think one way of ending the current illegitimate fire watch is to not ask for permits. The police will continue to show up, until we no longer live in a police state. 

[Lex]

I have never asked anyone for their fire permit nor have I ever insisted someone get one. The only time I would suggest a fire permit is if someone explicitly does not want to get hassled. I would make the same suggestion to a business owner that is being hassled by a gang for payment and no longer wants to be hassled.

Mike and thinkliberty, do you guys have drivers licenses and pay property taxes? If you do, is it because you support drivers licenses and think that people should pay their property taxes? If a vehicle with Christmas lights is pursuing you will you pull over? If so, why? Is it because you support being pulled over by vehicles with Christmas lights? Did you end up getting a fire permit for you fire at the Club 1000? If so, why? Is it because you support fire permits and the initiation of force involved?

[AntonLee]

I never asked for a firetower to begin with.  If others want this service I'm sure someone could do the job a lot better than government.  The first selling point could be

"Choose XYZ FireWatch, we sit on the mountain and watch for fires even after 5pm!  Protect your property, protect your children, even after 5pm."

Nobody has stepped up to offer the service.

I guess it's not very glamorous job to sit and watch the woods all day and would require a lot of work getting insurance companies on board or getting town residents to subscribe. Even then it probably wouldn't pay much. Someone industrious enough to organize this sort of business would probably find other much more profitable and exciting business opportunities.

I agree with you.  I would think that this service might be grouped into a basic fire and property protection service.   It might be someting the company would do to make their fire fighting more efficient.  I would say that permits would be too.  People who disagree with company policy might just stop paying.

[thinkliberty]

I have never asked anyone for their fire permit nor have I ever insisted someone get one. The only time I would suggest a fire permit is if someone explicitly does not want to get hassled.

Getting a fire permit does not explicitly mean that you won't be hassled (getting the permit is a hassle) You've said that people will get hassled anyway. Even after they beg for permission to have a fire.

A few of the calls that we've gotten for unpermitted burns where the person did have a permit is because the person issuing the permit didn't have a chance to submit the permit to Hanover dispatch yet.

So you'll be hassled 2 times if you get a permit and 1 time if you don't get a permit.

As an added bonus of not getting a permit you can show the world that the NH libertarian gubernatorial candidate is a authoritarian control freak that believes the government needs to be bigger, if Mike wants to be free to have a weenie fire and that politicos, even the libertarians are corrupted with a little power.

[BJ]

I did not favor or condone force against peaceful people.

So you have never or would never forcefully put someone's camp fire out like Babiarz?

[Mike Barskey]

I'm sorry to say, but the only incentive I can think of is to avoid initiation of force. Not having the police and/or fire department drop in on your party is the main incentive.

Not only has Lex expressed a lot of reasons and excuses in favor of using force against peaceful people, he explicitly says that he thinks it is good "incentive" (i.e., that by threatening force, people will be incentivized to follow orders in orders to avoid that force). I'm done with this conversation.

If you were going to twist what I say and make things up why did you bother continue to converse?

I did not favor or condone force against peaceful people. I said that if you do not get a permit that this is what will likely happen. As is the case for just about anything that has to do with government, if you don't do what they want there is a chance force will be initiated. I'm stating a fact, not supporting it or saying that it's acceptable.

I think you are lying Mike.

What do you think I'm lying about? I understand the 2 sentences of yours that I quotes to mean that the only incentive you can think of for people to get a fire permit is to avoid having police/fire aggress against me. Please use other words to explain what you mean, if that's not it.

I'm sorry to say, but the only incentive I can think of is to avoid initiation of force. Not having the police and/or fire department drop in on your party is the main incentive.

Not only has Lex expressed a lot of reasons and excuses in favor of using force against peaceful people, he explicitly says that he thinks it is good "incentive" (i.e., that by threatening force, people will be incentivized to follow orders in orders to avoid that force). I'm done with this conversation.

You are very good at twisting peoples words.

Again, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you. But you used simple language and I thought I got the meaning correct. What did you mean?

[Roycerson]

do you want the government to tax you even more so that they can afford to have someone sit up there after 5pm?

How many houses in the visual radius of the tower?  Our neighborhood watch doesn't have a problem finding people to idle around the neighborhood a couple of nights a week.