We had to kick Ethan out

[the_central_scrutinizer]

   While shocked at the accusations, I won't say that I am surprised. I pick my friends and form close relationships carefully and deliberately and consider myself a good judge of character. I study people" their mannerisms, quirks, patterns of behavior, body language, actions and words. Ethan was at our house for a number of weeks and though he never sidled up next to me, I wasn't left with a very good impression from the self-ascribed "professional agorist."

    After the train-wreck that was Jesse, the creepshow of Stone, and whatever happened with that Joe character (unless I have the name wrong), those of us that moved here either from far away or simply from across the state and take the principles and pursuit of liberty seriously need to be less blindly open to all comers. It is one thing to take in the unfortunate in compassion and understanding and quite another to leave the door wide open for predators and parasites who show up with no plans, no motivation and no ambition.

[Dan Steward]

There is not a lot that I personally could contribute to the character of Ethan. He was one of the many roommates I had met last year in Keene. The only "trouble" he was involved in there, was quite minimal. We stayed up late and listened to an FTL podcast that was too loud for our very kind host to appreciate. We were asked to "turn it off", apologized for the disturbance and then quickly complied with our host's wishes. One thing you would notice about him right off, is that he was very principled in his views. It appears that with his nomadic lifestyle he could just drop in and "be pals".

I do not wish to defend his behavior in any way yet, Ethan may have come from a home environment where such open displays of closeness were not frowned upon as much as perhaps in what we feel is the majority of other homes. Of course he should have ended these displays immediately once it was made known to him that such a thing is very inappropriate and unacceptable in the place he was living in. He violated their wishes regarding how someone should act in front of their children. For this he was rightfully ejected from the farm.

I think that from my experiences working with both children (in the Boy's & Girl's Club) and disabled adults in group homes and supported living situations the key word here is "vulnerable". They are susceptible to the abuses of those who are almost always bigger than them and able to intimidate them into compliance and silence afterwards should they be harmed by their assailants. I quit my job working with the disabled after much frustration at not being able to remove an offending staff from my workplace. The 6'3" sick bastard was grabbing individuals who were trying to put extra food in their lunch boxes, wiping his feet on a man much smaller than he was, and even picked up a person from the table and dropped him on the floor next to it, because he was trying to clean off the table and would not wait for the client to finish eating there.

The word of someone who is not mentally retarded is sadly accepted much more often than that of someone who is. This provides a ripe breeding ground for devious sociopaths who know where to go to ply their evil. They do this to children as well because they are hesitant to speak up for themselves, in fear of more punishment.

As a grandfather of four I urge you to be constantly vigilant when placing your kids in the care, company or supervision of others be it school, day care, or friends and house mates.  Let your children know that they can talk to you about anything that others do to make them feel uncomfortable not matter what it is. Encourage them to report what they experience to you without any fear of punishment for being truthful. It should go without saying that their safety and well being is your primary concern.

[MaineShark]

This discussion reminds me of the left brain vs. right brain... I notice that most libertarian folks are predominately left brain dominant... analytical, linear, present the "facts".  Right brain is more intuitive, a sense, nonlinear, in this case what is the motivation behind the person's actions.

I observe people and try and determine what motivates a person... the reasons behind their actions.

I think it's context-dependent.  All those fancy tests say that I'm pretty balanced on that spectrum.

However, when it comes to an accusation, determining right from wrong may require consideration of intent, but motive should be ignored.  Enhancing or reducing culpability based upon motive is something that is popular in Statism, but should be absent in liberty.  While I might have some personal interest in knowing someone's motives, I'm going to force myself to be disconnected and analytical, when it comes to determining whodunnit.

I rely heavily on my intuition, in life, but I won't condemn or exonerate someone based upon that.  If I'm visiting Weirs Beach and I see some guy riding a bike, wearing Hell's Angles colors, my intuition says to be wary, but I'm not going to draw down on the guy just because of that; I'll wait until he actually does something threatening enough to justify such action.  When it comes to major decisions, I'll suppress my intuition and stick to the facts.

My intuition tells me that enough individuals have expressed these concerns, that I probably won't leave my children alone with Ethan.  However, if I'm going to take action beyond that (potentially up to ostracism, if warranted), I want to have more data upon which to base such a decision.

Joe

[Fluff and Stuff]

and whatever happened with that Joe character (unless I have the name wrong)

If you are talking about Joe from RI, he went back to RI.  However, sometime ago I lost FB contact with him (did he quit, unfriend me, IDK).  He seemed like an good person to me while he was in NH, though.  I didn't live with him, however.

Cation and staying alert to things is useful though.  It seems like everything more or less worked out OK in this particular situation.

[shyfrog]

This discussion reminds me of the left brain vs. right brain... I notice that most libertarian folks are predominately left brain dominant... analytical, linear, present the "facts".  Right brain is more intuitive, a sense, nonlinear, in this case what is the motivation behind the person's actions.

On one hand, the left-brained are unable to "see" things that cannot be explained to them.
Example: Autostereograms. Some people are unable to see them no matter what they try to do. Yet, for others, it comes naturally and they are able to see the hidden object in a jumble of dots. For me, this is no different than someone who must constantly be given explanations for every little thing that pops up in their lives. Others may see the common sense explanation, but to those who cannot see, it is non-existing. In some sense, they are blind.

On the other hand, right-brained people rely on their "vision" too much and make judgement calls that might be wrong. Emotion colors what they see and can lead to irrational decisions based on that emotion.

Those who are balanced have learned to bridge the two.

Tom...is this reminding you of a particular recording by a particular band?

[the_central_scrutinizer]

Let the truth of love be lighted
Let the love of truth shine clear
Sensibility
Armed with sense and liberty
With the heart and mind united
In a single perfect sphere

    - from the greatest album EVER, by the best band EVER. PERIOD!  .

[dalebert]

Over time, I've learned to trust my gut about people (Women have feminine intuition.  Guys have gut feelings.  They're essentially the same thing.)  It has served me well.  I suspect Kat was experiencing intuition that cannot be conveyed with a description of the facts.  She's already apologized for the bat thing, which she feels was an over-reaction.  Other than that, it just seems like sensible precautions were taken.  I think Maineshark's points are good-- be cautious with your kids but I don't feel inclined to ostracize him over this.  I trust Kat's intuition for justifying her decision but would not carry it further without something more substantial.

[Dan Steward]

   While shocked at the accusations, I won't say that I am surprised. I pick my friends and form close relationships carefully and deliberately and consider myself a good judge of character. I study people" their mannerisms, quirks, patterns of behavior, body language, actions and words. Ethan was at our house for a number of weeks and though he never sidled up next to me, I wasn't left with a very good impression from the self-ascribed "professional agorist."

    After the train-wreck that was Jesse, the creepshow of Stone, and whatever happened with that Joe character (unless I have the name wrong), those of us that moved here either from far away or simply from across the state and take the principles and pursuit of liberty seriously need to be less blindly open to all comers. It is one thing to take in the unfortunate in compassion and understanding and quite another to leave the door wide open for predators and parasites who show up with no plans, no motivation and no ambition.

Stone took his creepshow on the road after leaving Grafton and attempted to soft land in Keene. For a guy that claimed to be one of us, he sadly didn't live up the words with any deeds. He had some very questionable tactics regarding personal space and the very rude violations of such. He also lacked even a rudimentary level of social skills and came close to having his head dented from his loutish behavior towards women in Keene. My observations are that he deemed them to be mere play toys.

I am hopeful that Stone Fremen, (a.k.a. Peter Newman) is no longer infesting New Hampshire with his presence.  He wouldn't (even when drunk) say just why he was tossed from Grafton & I'd be curious as to just why.

I don't know anything of this "Joe from RI". I'd like to know what his story is if anyone is willing to tell.

[Jim Johnson]

Over time, I've learned to trust my gut about people (Women have feminine intuition.  Guys have gut feelings.  They're essentially the same thing.)  It has served me well.  I suspect Kat was experiencing intuition that cannot be conveyed with a description of the facts.  She's already apologized for the bat thing, which she feels was an over-reaction.  Other than that, it just seems like sensible precautions were taken.  I think Maineshark's points are good-- be cautious with your kids but I don't feel inclined to ostracize him over this.  I trust Kat's intuition for justifying her decision but would not carry it further without something more substantial.

feminine intuition and gut feelings are physical responses, either positive or negative, to experiences one has had in the past.
The more emotion evoked during the original experience the stronger the intuitive response.   
Repressed emotions cause exaggerated responses.
Having a response that is not completely rational for the moment requires one to explore those feelings. 

[Lex]

I got to know Ethan a little bit over the last couple of months going on bike rides with him. He seems like a nice and principled person but not having lived with him I don't know what he's like day-to-day. I'm sorry to hear that he had to leave, I hope that he was able to find some place to stay.

Given what I have read posted here, that he was asked not to cuddle with kids and did it anyways, I think Kat was justified in kicking him out.

But as others have said, it would be nice to hear his side of the story.

[EthanLeeVita]

Awhile ago, there was a sunday show with Dale, Puke, and Luthor about sexual fetishes. I had downloaded it and was listening to it with Tamber and Daniel in the room. I've found that the Eastman children tend to be very mature and so I'm sure that if they were disturbed by it, they would have asked me to stop, which I would have. Eventually, John walked into the room. I knew he did not appreciate such discussions due to a past conversation he had with me regarding Porc Therapy so I turned it off for him. A month later, about two weeks ago (?), I was asked to refrain from such behavior, which I did out of respect for people's feelings on such matters, despite my disagreement. I was not accused of touching the children inappropriately, nor asked to stop (which would have been an accusation in itself). Nor did I ever touch the kids inappropriately. I do admit that I may have had conversations with them that some consider inappropriate, but that was because as an anti-ageist and in recognition of their maturity, I thought they could handle it and if they had an issue, they'd tell me. In all, I found it odd that it took a month or so to bring this request about sexual radio content to my attention.

I did not begin using the word cuddling. It was mentioned to me by Russell during a ride to Man Cave to get wood, where I was informed I would likely have two days left to leave. Because of the short ride from Grafton Gulch, not much got said, but I was confused because I had not been cuddling and was rerunning the morning's memories through my head to recall what could have led to that. What I remembered at the time was lying on the couch, with Brigitte in front of me, and Daniel walked up, so I moved my legs so he could sit. I had done the same when Brigitte walked in, but she'd chosen a chair instead. Later that morning, I had sat next to Daniel to pet Fade. I had thought Brigitte was still sitting there across from the couch, but apparently she was not at the time. It was alleged by John and Kat that I was two inches from his face, which I do not recall at all. My focus was on the cat, scratching its ears, scratching its neck under the chin etc. Also, if there was cuddling, why not say something then? I certainly would have if I'd thought something inappropriate was occurring.

I'm glad that Kat has recognized the bat was unnecessary, though I hope she feels the same about the threats she gave on behalf of Brigitte and Lou (I don't know if they said it, I only know that Kat said Brigitte would be calling the cops to get me arrested and that Lou wouldn't have a bat because he was a "crazy gun nut"). I respect private property rights and it would have been simple enough to simply talk to me instead of the added threat of direct violence by Kat and Lou, or Brigitte threatening indirect violence by calling the state to arrest me.

Another related accusation came from John about something weeks ago and is full of more misunderstandings. I had a sore back so I had Daniel walk on it (Tamber was in the room at the time and I think I asked him too, don't recall specifically, but eventually he went to bed). So we're goofing around and I fall off the couch, which apparently woke John up. There was also thunder going on outside. So when he comes downstairs he asks if there was thunder out or something that made a noise. Considering I'd heard thunder, and he suggested it himself, I said there was thunder. Then Daniel said I fell off couch, which I accepted. John took that as me trying to hide something and was proof that I was a suspicious individual. And then the morning I got kicked out, he tries to tell me that I denied falling off the couch, which I never did.

I did talk to Kevin on the way down to Keene and based on his input, despite nothing going on, I am going to try to work on being more careful about giving off impressions of things that do not exist.

If anyone else has a question or disputes a point, I welcome the conversation in an open, respectful manner.

[shyfrog]

"crazy gun nut"

Second time I've ever had the term "gun nut" used in reference to me that I'm aware of.
The first was on a date just this past weekend in Burlington VT due to the fact that I actually "own" a gun, therefore putting me in the "gun nut" category by default. Interesting.

I'm more of a crazy guitar nut. I own a large cache of them and I'm not afraid to use them.

[John]

WOW. 5 pages? I HAVE NOT - YET - READ A SINGLE POST HERE.
I have not had time to spend on the forum lately but, I came to this thread because someone said that it had started and, that someone might be looking for my observations.
I will put in my 5+ cents when I have more time but, for now, wanted to say that I did not and do not consider it an emergency situation. If I had I would have started the thread last week.
For now - I think think that the worst evil that will come of the situation is if folks whom the kids care about use the situation as a weapon to attack others whom the kids care about! Whatever inappropriate else happened, if those ADULTS closest to the kids CHOOSE to use this as an opportunity to teach (or advance) hatred (particularly toward other adults the kids care about and/or rely on) - then shame on those adults.

If anyone is feeling like this is a good time for venting some stored up anger, I must  say that I think that this would be a bad time to do that. Take a few deep breaths and try not to make an uncomfortable situation a really bad one for the kids.

"We will have peace only when we learn to love our children more than we hate our enemies."

[Puke]

Second time I've ever had the term "gun nut" used in reference to me that I'm aware of.

Lou isn't a gun-nut.

I'm a gun nut.   

[Lex]

I have been doing a lot of research on etiquette, personal space, controlling behaviors and other attributes of social interaction in order to try and distill a pattern that exemplifies what I think is a well rounded and well mannered person so that I can have a better standard to hold myself to and what I could expect from others. It's stuff that would be common sense to most of you.

This situation is exactly where this kind of written guidelines would be very handy.

Most of us have a pretty well defined response system for dealing with stuff like physical assault, verbal abuse, property theft and destruction, etc. It is something tangible and visible and easy to verbalize and show.

But things like personal space, speech patterns, politeness and many other forms of etiquette are almost taboo. In fact, everything I have read about etiquette basically says that the first rule of etiquette is that you don't talk about etiquette and you don't point out poor etiquette in other people. In other words, it's much easier to confront someone if they hit you or call you names than to do the same if someone didn't say please or thank you. It's almost like if someone enters your personal space you feel like a complainer if you say something.

Based on both sides of the story that I have heard so far this is essentially what has happened. Ethan did things that others found to be poor etiquette but because it's poor etiquette to point out poor etiquette it took a long time and a lot of frustration to finally climax at Ethan being kicked out.

What I'm getting at is that maybe being bashful about pointing out poor etiquette isn't the best long term approach. And in the grand scheme of things not teaching others about etiquette puts people into permanent classes, whatever etiquette your parents taught you basically defines who your friends are going to be for the rest of your life... unless you re-education yourself. If discussing etiquette was a more open and inviting subject I think people would get along better and there would be less frustration.

By definition etiquette is specific to a locale and as people come to the free state from all over the country with different sets of etiquette there are bound to be conflicts.

To bring this back on subject, I recommend the involved parties peruse the following wikipedia articles on personal space:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxemics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_contact_and_personal_space_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_boundaries