A challenge

[John]

Quoting the Dalai Lama

"Take forgiveness. Two levels here. One level: forgiveness means you shouldn't develop feelings of revenge. Because revenge harms the other person, therefore it is a form of violence. With violence, there is usually counterviolence. This generates even more violence—the problem never goes away. So that is one level. Another level: forgiveness means you should try not to develop feelings of anger toward your enemy. Anger doesn't solve the problem. Anger only brings uncomfortable feelings to yourself. Anger destroys your own peace of mind. Your happy mood never comes, not while anger remains. I think that's the main reason why we should forgive. With calm mind, more peaceful mind, more healthy body. An agitated mind spoils our health, very harmful for body. This is my feeling."

[John]

There are 2 quotes regarding forgiveness which I have always thought of as rather strange, because they both talk about forgiveness as form of revenge, which is, of coarse, not forgiveness.

"Always forgive your enemies - nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
"Forgiveness is the sweetest revenge." - Isaac Friedmann

Now, while searching for good forgiveness lessons on videos, I find this strange short film, based on a true story:
After his life has been ruined by 19 years of being tormented by an intense hatred (punishing himself), a man finishes off his enemy with an act of revenge – an act of false forgiveness. This was obviously NOT forgiveness.

WARNING this short (27 min.) film, Romans 12:20, is VIOLENT and contains nasty language.Romans 12:20 - Short Film (27 mins)

[Russell Kanning]

very strange way to look at life

[John]

"Not to forgive is to be imprisoned by the past, by old grievances that do not permit life to proceed with new business. Not to forgive is to yield oneself to another's control... to be locked into a sequence of act and response, of outrage and revenge, tit for tat, escalating always. The present is endlessly overwhelmed and devoured by the past. Forgiveness frees the forgiver. It extracts the forgiver from someone else's nightmare." - Lance Morrow


Wow. This really gets toward the heart of the matter of unforgiveness: "...The present is endlessly overwhelmed and devoured by the past." 

[KBCraig]

I'm of mixed minds on the issue of forgiveness.

In my "justice" mind, the person I would forgive should repent, so that I can truly forget and forgive; I need his repentance to know that he won't do it again.

This is for both my benefit, and his.

The other mind is for "forgiveness regardless"; this lets me forgive whether the other person is repentant, or not.

I have to admit, I don't subscribe to that model. I don't believe there can be any true forgiveness without apology; preemptive forgiveness excuses wrong behavior without any expectation that it will change. It seems selfish, to just make myself feel better without any chance of helping the other person.

[KBCraig]

Here's a movie I just watched about righting wrongs, and forgiveness.

http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Hiding_and_Seeking/60034534

In this compelling documentary from the directors of the just-as-riveting A Life Apart: Hasidism in America, a father takes his grown-up Orthodox Jewish sons to Poland to teach them about the perils of putting up walls to keep those they deem dangerous outside. After he introduces them to the Polish family who helped their grandfather during the Holocaust, they discover the value in building bridges.

[Russell Kanning]

I used to think I had certain "rights" or that I deserved to be treated certain ways. I guess I still do, when I get really disappointed with how I am treated by certain people. But I am much happier, when I am thankful for what I actually have and not what I don't.

I guess if you wait for other people to change, or to truly repent and ask forgiveness .... before you forgive them, then you are disappointed until then.
Obviously you are going to treat people differently who are hurting others .... or are no longer hurting others. But you can still help them instead of hurt them until they get there.
Some of us are waiting for all the fed prison guards to quit their jobs, but until them we can treat them with some kindness.

[Raineyrocks]

I think there are four conditions--that's why they call it "fourgiveness."  I've made it alliterative for easy memorization.
A person has to:
1.  Recognize that what he did was wrong.
2.  Regret having done it.
3.  Show some evident attempt to
     Reform.
and
4.  Make, to whatever degree possible,
     Restitution.

If they've fulfilled those conditions, they've earned forgiveness.  If they haven't, forgiveness is just sanction to go right on committing wrongdoing.

I can't help it, if this is going to be an "R" post......................Does forgiveness mean I have to be more patient with Rick? 

[Russell Kanning]

that could be
recommended
or
rediculous

[Sam A. Robrin]

It's also a matter of Reciprocity....

[Russell Kanning]

and any reaction will have reprecusions

[Sam A. Robrin]

ARound the Rocks the Ragged Rascal Ran....

[John]

Does forgiveness mean I have to be more patient with Rick? 

Thanks for the interesting question Rainey!

When you think about this answer, it will likely not surprise you. No. You will not have to be more patient. Patience is one of the awesome health-giving gifts which comes when we forgive. It follows naturally and instantly (and in the same measure) - as if hand in hand.

Regardless of your spiritual/religious/or none of the above belief system, forgiveness relieves symptoms of stress. Impatience is definitely a sign of (and producer of) stress.

Think about it this way: How do you feel when you are not patient/forgiving? Unhappy, nervous, and not so healthy? How do you feel when you are patient/forgiving? Happy, calm, and healthy?

Many people lead unhappy, nervous, and not-so-healthy day-to-day lives full of dispare because they are unwilling to be forgiving.

[John]

I'm of mixed minds on the issue of forgiveness.

And therefore mixed results - at best - I'm sure.
Best of luck.

[John]

ARound the Rocks the Ragged Rascal Ran....

Ressling the Restlessness caused by his Resentments ...