Lynch: "Fibbing" about his budget record

[tracysaboe]

 

Tracy

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Since this thread has drifted so much, I might be able to shed a little light on the LDS faith and some of the reasons why others don't believe they're christian.  In fact, many very true believing mormons don't call themselves christian anymore either.




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[tracysaboe]

By all means.   

Tracy

[Follow]

I know you said that you didn't have a problem with polygamy... but all the stories that I hear:

Mormons can't drink Coke (Not true)
They don't believe in Jesus (Not true)
They don't believe in God (Not true)
They worship Joseph Smith (Not true)
They don't believe in the Bible (Not true)
etc etc

I don't care what people think of the Mormons but the FACTS are needed.

I'll start with this list here.


1.  Mormons can't drink Coke.

This is technically true.  The actual rule in the "Doctrine and Covenant" is that they may not consume "hot beverages."  I'm not entirely sure why that was put in place, but it was.  However, this left a lot of strange questions.  What about soup?  Hot chocolate?  Etc.  So the commonly accepted interpretation of it now is that they may not drink caffinated beverages.  The interpretation is that the prophets meant caffiene was bad (as is nicotine and alcohol, etc.).  So while it's not a direct rule out of their scriptures, it is a rule in that it's frowned upon.

2.  Mormons don't believe in Jesus.

Their Jesus differs from the biblical Jesus in a few ways.  First, after this Jesus died, he came to America and started over.  He was a mortal man and he founded their church in what they consider a "pure" form.  The name of the church itself reflects this: The Church of Jesus Christ (the maker of the church) of Latter Day Saints (meaning they are the carriers of the true knowledge of christ and they were chosen to "rebuild" christ's church).

3.  They don't believe in God.

Well, not entirely true.  Their God is a man from a planet named Kolob who reached the highest level of heaven.  I'll talk about that a bit more later.  Their God differs from the christian God in that the christian God created everything and their belief implies that there was a universe in existence before him and he was a servant of another God until he became a god himself.  For this reason, many people consider the LDS to be polytheistic, and therefore very distinctly not christian.

4.  They worship Joseph Smith.

They don't exalt him on the level of Jesus, that much is true.  But they do put him on the same kind of level as an apostle for example.  They have statues based on him, and consider everything he said to be real and true.  In Utah especially, there is a certain exaltation of Joseph Smith (and to a lesser extent Brigham Young) that would certainly look like "worship" to an outside observer.

5.  They don't believe in the bible.

Well, they claim they believe everything in the bible, but they also contradict it with their own teaching and scriptures.  So I guess it's up to individual judgment whether they do or don't believe the bible.


There are numerous other beliefs held by the LDS that might make people think they're odd, I think they're odd myself and find new things I didn't know daily about their religion.  To give a few other examples...


They believe they have special underwear they call garments which are blessed to protect them from danger.

They believe dinosaurs were put here as a test from God and they were not native to this planet, but shipped in.

They believe there was a war on American soil between, I believe the groups were called, Lamanites and Nephites.

The Lamanites, they believe, were a dark skinned people who are the ancestors of the black/middle eastern/native american people we have now, they were an evil people.  The white skinned people (I think the Nephites) were the ancestors of all the white people today, and they were a good people.  This is why blacks weren't allowed to hold the priesthood until fairly recently in church history.

They also believe that when the darker skinned people are baptised, they would become "white and delightsome" when they came out of the water.  This was written of course, before it was ever attempted.  Imagine their surprise...

The LDS believe that only men can get into the various levels of heaven, and that only married women are allowed "past the veil" and only if their husbands call them to come.  The method of calling them beyond the veil is a complex ritual which they practice at the temple, and the name used to call the wife is a special "temple name" that is revealed to you upon entering the temple.  This is the reason many wives want to join with a good man who will get to the highest level of heaven possible and call her to be with him.  If they get a bad husband, he won't reach a very high level of heaven, and if they're disobedient wives, they won't be called beyond the veil.  Therefore they're expected to be extremely obedient and faithful to be worthy of their husbands.  When they die, they go to a sort of waiting room until their husband calls.

They don't believe in "hell" as such, their version of it consists of what is known as "Outer Darkness" where your punishment is being out in the middle of dark no where without the presence of God.  That is reserved for the very wicked and it's basically their lowest level of hell.  Most people, non-believers, not-bad but not-good people will go to the first level of heaven where things are fairly similar to what earth is like.  As the levels of heaven go higher, so too do the rewards associated with them, up to the highest level of heaven where you get to be a God of your own planet.  Much like God came to be God of our planet.

You can't get into heaven unless you know a secret handshake and a password taught to you at the temple.  This is one of their contrary beliefs considering where the not-so-bad people are supposed to go.

You can't get into the temple (and thus heaven) unless you pay 10% of your income (gross, not net) to tithing to the church and follow all of the scriptures as interpreted by your specific bishop...


The list goes on forever with their weird stuff, they tie their boys wrists when they sleep if the boy is having trouble "overcoming" masturbation.  They have a church proscribed method of sex which involves hardly any nudity, and is meant to minimize pleasure (their own words).  I've often said that the LDS were fortunate in the scientologists showing up to steal their thunder as "weirdest religion."




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[Dreepa]

I was going to leave this alone... but.

1.  Mormons can't drink Coke.

This is technically true.  The actual rule in the "Doctrine and Covenant" is that they may not consume "hot beverages."  I'm not entirely sure why that was put in place, but it was.  However, this left a lot of strange questions.  What about soup?  Hot chocolate?  Etc.  So the commonly accepted interpretation of it now is that they may not drink caffinated beverages.  The interpretation is that the prophets meant caffiene was bad (as is nicotine and alcohol, etc.).  So while it's not a direct rule out of their scriptures, it is a rule in that it's frowned upon.

It actually says 'Strong drinks are not for the belly'
It was originally just 'hard liquor' and has since been interpreted as all alcohol.
It may be frowned upon by some but it is not a rule.

2.  Mormons don't believe in Jesus.

Their Jesus differs from the biblical Jesus in a few ways.  First, after this Jesus died, he came to America and started over.  He was a mortal man and he founded their church in what they consider a "pure" form.  The name of the church itself reflects this: The Church of Jesus Christ (the maker of the church) of Latter Day Saints (meaning they are the carriers of the true knowledge of christ and they were chosen to "rebuild" christ's church).

Correct... but Jesus they do believe in him.

3.  They don't believe in God.

Well, not entirely true.  Their God is a man from a planet named Kolob who reached the highest level of heaven.  I'll talk about that a bit more later.  Their God differs from the christian God in that the christian God created everything and their belief implies that there was a universe in existence before him and he was a servant of another God until he became a god himself.  For this reason, many people consider the LDS to be polytheistic, and therefore very distinctly not christian.

I could find no evidence of this anywhere except in anti Mormon literature.  I have heard of the Kolob thing many times but can find no proof anywhere.

4.  They worship Joseph Smith.

They don't exalt him on the level of Jesus, that much is true.  But they do put him on the same kind of level as an apostle for example.  They have statues based on him, and consider everything he said to be real and true.  In Utah especially, there is a certain exaltation of Joseph Smith (and to a lesser extent Brigham Young) that would certainly look like "worship" to an outside observer.

They consider him a Prophet.
Along the lines that many other cults/sects think of Paul or Saul.

5.  They don't believe in the bible.

Well, they claim they believe everything in the bible, but they also contradict it with their own teaching and scriptures.  So I guess it's up to individual judgment whether they do or don't believe the bible.

Come on the Bible contradicts itself from the old to the new testament.

They believe dinosaurs were put here as a test from God and they were not native to this planet, but shipped in.

First I have ever heard of this one.  Is there a credible source?

They believe there was a war on American soil between, I believe the groups were called, Lamanites and Nephites.

The Lamanites, they believe, were a dark skinned people who are the ancestors of the black/middle eastern/native american people we have now, they were an evil people.  The white skinned people (I think the Nephites) were the ancestors of all the white people today, and they were a good people.  This is why blacks weren't allowed to hold the priesthood until fairly recently in church history.

I have heard that it was because it was the 'mark of Cain' that black people couldn't hold the priesthood.
Maybe it is somewhere in between.

You can't get into the temple (and thus heaven) unless you pay 10% of your income (gross, not net) to tithing to the church and follow all of the scriptures as interpreted by your specific bishop...

While true that you can't get into the temple if you are not a full tithe payer (and I believe that it is personal choice of gross or net) It is not true that you can't go to heaven.
They believe in 3 levels of Heaven.  I think that 'good people' get to go to the first level whether they have been to the temple or not. (or at least so I have been told)

  They have a church proscribed method of sex which involves hardly any nudity, and is meant to minimize pleasure (their own words).

Do you have a source for this?  I have never heard of this before.

That being said  I am not saying it is not crazy.. .most religions have weird beliefs.  I just think that much of what people take for 'facts' are usually about 75% right and the rest hearsay based on a dislike for the religion.

[tracysaboe]

I know you said that you didn't have a problem with polygamy... but all the stories that I hear:

Mormons can't drink Coke (Not true)
They don't believe in Jesus (Not true)
They don't believe in God (Not true)
They worship Joseph Smith (Not true)
They don't believe in the Bible (Not true)
etc etc

I don't care what people think of the Mormons but the FACTS are needed.

I'll start with this list here.


1.  Mormons can't drink Coke.

This is technically true.  The actual rule in the "Doctrine and Covenant" is that they may not consume "hot beverages."  I'm not entirely sure why that was put in place, but it was.  However, this left a lot of strange questions.  What about soup?  Hot chocolate?  Etc.  So the commonly accepted interpretation of it now is that they may not drink caffinated beverages.  The interpretation is that the prophets meant caffiene was bad (as is nicotine and alcohol, etc.).  So while it's not a direct rule out of their scriptures, it is a rule in that it's frowned upon.

2.  Mormons don't believe in Jesus.

Their Jesus differs from the biblical Jesus in a few ways.  First, after this Jesus died, he came to America and started over.  He was a mortal man and he founded their church in what they consider a "pure" form.  The name of the church itself reflects this: The Church of Jesus Christ (the maker of the church) of Latter Day Saints (meaning they are the carriers of the true knowledge of christ and they were chosen to "rebuild" christ's church).

3.  They don't believe in God.

Well, not entirely true.  Their God is a man from a planet named Kolob who reached the highest level of heaven.  I'll talk about that a bit more later.  Their God differs from the christian God in that the christian God created everything and their belief implies that there was a universe in existence before him and he was a servant of another God until he became a god himself.  For this reason, many people consider the LDS to be polytheistic, and therefore very distinctly not christian.

4.  They worship Joseph Smith.

They don't exalt him on the level of Jesus, that much is true.  But they do put him on the same kind of level as an apostle for example.  They have statues based on him, and consider everything he said to be real and true.  In Utah especially, there is a certain exaltation of Joseph Smith (and to a lesser extent Brigham Young) that would certainly look like "worship" to an outside observer.

5.  They don't believe in the bible.

Well, they claim they believe everything in the bible, but they also contradict it with their own teaching and scriptures.  So I guess it's up to individual judgment whether they do or don't believe the bible.


There are numerous other beliefs held by the LDS that might make people think they're odd, I think they're odd myself and find new things I didn't know daily about their religion.  To give a few other examples...


They believe they have special underwear they call garments which are blessed to protect them from danger.

They believe dinosaurs were put here as a test from God and they were not native to this planet, but shipped in.

They believe there was a war on American soil between, I believe the groups were called, Lamanites and Nephites.

The Lamanites, they believe, were a dark skinned people who are the ancestors of the black/middle eastern/native american people we have now, they were an evil people.  The white skinned people (I think the Nephites) were the ancestors of all the white people today, and they were a good people.  This is why blacks weren't allowed to hold the priesthood until fairly recently in church history.

They also believe that when the darker skinned people are baptised, they would become "white and delightsome" when they came out of the water.  This was written of course, before it was ever attempted.  Imagine their surprise...

The LDS believe that only men can get into the various levels of heaven, and that only married women are allowed "past the veil" and only if their husbands call them to come.  The method of calling them beyond the veil is a complex ritual which they practice at the temple, and the name used to call the wife is a special "temple name" that is revealed to you upon entering the temple.  This is the reason many wives want to join with a good man who will get to the highest level of heaven possible and call her to be with him.  If they get a bad husband, he won't reach a very high level of heaven, and if they're disobedient wives, they won't be called beyond the veil.  Therefore they're expected to be extremely obedient and faithful to be worthy of their husbands.  When they die, they go to a sort of waiting room until their husband calls.

They don't believe in "hell" as such, their version of it consists of what is known as "Outer Darkness" where your punishment is being out in the middle of dark no where without the presence of God.  That is reserved for the very wicked and it's basically their lowest level of hell.  Most people, non-believers, not-bad but not-good people will go to the first level of heaven where things are fairly similar to what earth is like.  As the levels of heaven go higher, so too do the rewards associated with them, up to the highest level of heaven where you get to be a God of your own planet.  Much like God came to be God of our planet.

You can't get into heaven unless you know a secret handshake and a password taught to you at the temple.  This is one of their contrary beliefs considering where the not-so-bad people are supposed to go.

You can't get into the temple (and thus heaven) unless you pay 10% of your income (gross, not net) to tithing to the church and follow all of the scriptures as interpreted by your specific bishop...


The list goes on forever with their weird stuff, they tie their boys wrists when they sleep if the boy is having trouble "overcoming"          ion.  They have a church proscribed method of sex which involves hardly any       , and is meant to minimize pleasure (their own words).  I've often said that the LDS were fortunate in the scientologists showing up to steal their thunder as "weirdest religion."

Follow  

Thank you Follow. That pretty much sums up my interactions with what they believe too.

Tracy

[Follow]

I was going to leave this alone... but.

I'm always up for a chat if you are.  

It actually says 'Strong drinks are not for the belly'
It was originally just 'hard liquor' and has since been interpreted as all alcohol.
It may be frowned upon by some but it is not a rule.

Doctrine and Covenants 89:7 says: "And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies."

But; Doctrine and Covenants 89:9 says: "And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly."

The church had this to say on the matter:

'With reference to cola drinks, the Church has never officially taken a position on this matter, but the leaders of the Church have advised, and we do now specifically advise, against the use of any drink containing harmful habit-forming drugs under circumstances that would result in acquiring the habit. Any beverage that contains ingredients harmful to the body should be avoided.'" (Clifford J. Stratton, ?Caffeine?The Subtle Addiction,? Ensign, June 1988, 60)

Correct... but Jesus they do believe in him.

I was only pointing out the difference that other christians see and the reasons they call LDS non-christian.  "Their Jesus is different from our Jesus."  Etc...

I could find no evidence of this anywhere except in anti Mormon literature.  I have heard of the Kolob thing many times but can find no proof anywhere.

Pearl of Great Price, Book of Abraham 3:2-3

 2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it;
 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

There are a few more mentions of it as well, but that one should suffice.

They consider him a Prophet.
Along the lines that many other cults/sects think of Paul or Saul.

Indeed.

Come on the Bible contradicts itself from the old to the new testament.

You'll get no argument from me here.  

First I have ever heard of this one.  Is there a credible source?

It's a known one that floats around, I know a lot of exmormons; bishops included in those ranks.  I'll have to find a reference for you.  You do realize though that the BoM along with all of its supplements has been reprinted and revised probably 100s of times and all of the reprintings aren't especially easy to find.  

I have heard that it was because it was the 'mark of Cain' that black people couldn't hold the priesthood.
Maybe it is somewhere in between.

Well, it's said that God cursed the Lamanites for their evil with "skin of blackness" and the Native Americans were descendants of those Lamanites.  I don't see much difference between the "Mark of Cain" and the Lamanite Curse.  I suppose they make some kind of differentiation in the BoM, but it's essentially the same deal.

While true that you can't get into the temple if you are not a full tithe payer (and I believe that it is personal choice of gross or net) It is not true that you can't go to heaven.
They believe in 3 levels of Heaven.  I think that 'good people' get to go to the first level whether they have been to the temple or not. (or at least so I have been told)

1) Tithing - The most important step toward achieving financial well being is to pay tithing first-no excuses or exceptions. President Gordon B. Hinckley counseled: "some of you have money problems. I know that. You are struggling to get along. What is the cure? The only thing I know is the payment of tithing."
-March 2004 Ensign Article - 5 steps to financial well being Pages 66-71

The 'good people' getting into heaven is a contradiction.  Why do they practice secret handshakes and passwords in the temple to get into heaven if you can get to the first level anyway?  Do you only need the special passwords and handshakes to get into the higher levels?

Do you have a source for this?  I have never heard of this before.

"The union of the sexes, husband and wife (and only husband and wife), was for the principal purpose of bringing children into the world. Sexual experiences were never intended by the Lord to be a mere plaything or merely to satisfy passions and lusts. We know of no directive from the Lord that proper sexual experience between husbands and wives need be limited totally to the procreation of children, but we find much evidence from Adam until now that no provision was ever made by the Lord for indiscriminate sex."
-President Spencer W. Kimball 1975

I can't find the old official church sex guide right now, but that was where I got it from originally.  But suffice to say that "missionary" is still the only legal sexual position in Utah, and we still have anti-sodomy laws on record.

That being said  I am not saying it is not crazy.. .most religions have weird beliefs.  I just think that much of what people take for 'facts' are usually about 75% right and the rest hearsay based on a dislike for the religion.

I try to keep hearsay to a minimum (not to be confused with heresy, which I keep to a maximum).  When it comes to their religion, I really have no need at all to embelish.  




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[tracysaboe]

Thanks Follow,

Wow. Did you go to LDS Semenary in your highschool years like my Mormon friends did? That's way more detailed then I could give.

"The union of the sexes, husband and wife (and only husband and wife), was for the principal purpose of bringing children into the world. Sexual experiences were never intended by the Lord to be a mere plaything or merely to satisfy passions and lusts. We know of no directive from the Lord that proper sexual experience between husbands and wives need be limited totally to the procreation of children, but we find much evidence from Adam until now that no provision was ever made by the Lord for indiscriminate sex."
-President Spencer W. Kimball 1975

And see this is in direct contradiction to the Pauliene Epistles in the New Testament that speak about sex. It's basically a sin to not have sex with your wife if she wants it and vice versa according to the New Testament.

Regarding Discrepencies between old and new. you have to realize their was a new covenent and because of grace we don't need to live under pharicistic laws anymore.

Tracy

[Dreepa]

Wow. Did you go to LDS Semenary in your highschool years like my Mormon friends did? That's way more detailed then I could give.

Btw isn't it kinda fucked that God asked Abraham to cut part of his dick off?
Genesis 17:24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised,

[tracysaboe]

The Ancient Jews were the most hygenic culture of all the ancient culture. Circumcisn was part of that. It's a lot easier to keep a penis clean with-out the extra flap of skin.

Nowdays, in our wealthier society (and even by the time Jesus came around --reaching out to both the circumsized and uncircumsized) it wasn't so critical.. But back then, it made sense.

Tracy

[Pat McCotter]

The Ancient Jews were the most hygenic culture of all the ancient culture. Circumcisn was part of that. It's a lot easier to keep a penis clean with-out the extra flap of skin.

Nowdays, in our wealthier society (and even by the time Jesus came around --reaching out to both the circumsized and uncircumsized) it wasn't so critical.. But back then, it made sense.

Tracy

Health was the reason for the laws of Kashrut, also.

[Dreepa]

Agreed.... but they seem to have twisted it and said that GOD said they must cut off a part of their dicks.  KInda Fucked!

[Follow]

Thanks Follow,

Wow. Did you go to LDS Semenary in your highschool years like my Mormon friends did? That's way more detailed then I could give.

No, I just study religion to be fully fluent with their views.  That way the religious can't try to convert me based on my own ignorance. 

I find most of the time that I know the beliefs of a particular religion better than the followers of it.




Follow 

[Pat McCotter]

Agreed.... but they seem to have twisted it and said that GOD said they must cut off a part of their dicks.  KInda Fucked!

Never heard of Chariots of the Gods? Erich von D?niken? The gods were aliens who taught the Jews about health. And a bunch of other people about a bunch of other stuff.

[toowm]

I think a big reason the Christian Protestant groups think LDS is not Christian is having the "extra" book of Mormom.

It reminds me of Christians who don't understand it when Jews object to being told they follow the same God -- just tell them that that means Mormons and Muslims and Ba'Hai follow the same God too!