911

[Caleb]

Kevin buddy,

Why do you assume that none of us have read anything that is not 9/11 oriented?  I've read the Popular Mechanics article more than once, and to be honest, it fails on several counts.  It gets a LOT of information wrong, or else skews the data.  It basically is one gigantic straw man argument.

In my opinion, the best thing to do is to analyze the background of 9/11 (without analyzing any of the events of that day).  Find out what Al Qaeda is, etc, and that alone will be sufficient to debunk the official conspiracy theory that Muslim extremists carried this out.  the pieces start to fall in place for you.

Kev, I'll grant you that it is scary. 

Caleb

[tracysaboe]

At this point, I think its beyond incompetence, Tracey. 

It's just a quote dude. I thought it was dark and sexy.

If you read my previous posts, I agree with a more mild form. The government new about it -- and purposefully did nothingto galvanize the folks. As a physics major myself -- I really don't buy that the only way it could calapse that quickly was with incendiary devices.

There's a lot of incompetance AND corruption.

Did anybody read the PDF I posted?
http://www.freedom-force.org/pdf/futurecalling4.pdf

Tracy

[Just Anonymous]

At this point, I think its beyond incompetence, Tracey. 

It's just a quote dude. I thought it was dark and sexy.

If you read my previous posts, I agree with a more mild form. The government new about it -- and purposefully did nothingto galvanize the folks. As a physics major myself -- I really don't buy that the only way it could calapse that quickly was with incendiary devices.

There's a lot of incompetance AND corruption.

Did anybody read the PDF I posted?
http://www.freedom-force.org/pdf/futurecalling4.pdf

Tracy

Russell was just freed yesterday, so I think a lot of people are focusing there right now....

Anyways, one comment on the free fall of the building.  Have you looked at the physics calculations mentioned on video #4?  If what you say is correct, then that definitey needs to be looked into.  Have you worked up any data on it yet?  Also, there is still the issue of the concrete being pulverized (which you might have already taken into account) and the evidence of thermate being used to melt/cut the steel.  One thing that one of the scientists/professors on the Scholars for 911 Truth talks about is that he likes to put things through peer review.  The thermate evidence, I think, is awaiting peer review.

[tracysaboe]

Honestly, I really haven't looked at it all that closely.

Perhaps if I did I would feel differently. But to an point, I'm kind-of with Ian. It doesn't really matter if there was a massive consperacy theory or not. The real point is Government failed is in most basic function.

Tracy

[maineiac]

Honestly, I really haven't looked at it all that closely.

Perhaps if I did I would feel differently. But to an point, I'm kind-of with Ian. It doesn't really matter if there was a massive consperacy theory or not. The real point is Government failed is in most basic function.

Tracy

Tracy,

On the contrary, the government (or more correctly, elements within it) have succeeded wildly with 911, in their increasing and consolidation of power.

[tracysaboe]

It's most basic function to protect the lives and property of it's citizens. It failed.

But yoy're right. The true function of government is to make itself more powerful. It's wildly succeded at that.

Tracy

[lildog]

Guys, I'm sorry but this seems more like a case of looking FOR facts that support your theories then looking AT facts and seeing what they point to relistically.

First off to enter into this conspiracy belief you first must believe that hundreds if not thousands of Americans all entered into a plot to conspire against their own country men so Bush can start a war in the Middle East (which we already had begun under the prior two or three presidents).

And among those FBI, CIA and Pentagon employees that plotted to murder their own co-workers and countrymen and not ONE of those in the know on this blew the whistle in a five year period?

Oh and my favorite part of what you have to swallow to buy into this whole thing... that Bush was smart enough to actually plan this whole event flawlessly and in the 7 months he had while in office.

You can sit back and accept all of that as fact?  And yet somehow even though there are missing people and families weeping for their loved ones who were on a plane that hit the pentagon you can open your minds to the idea that it wasn't really a plane but some kind of missle?

Tell me, when's the next time you're having Elvis over for dinner?

What needs to be accepted to even humor the possibilities of some of these ideas is just too much.  I'm sorry, it's tin foil hat kind of stuff here folks.

[tracysaboe]

Tell me, when's the next time you're having Elvis over for dinner?

LOL
Tracy

[hook]

Guys, I'm sorry but this seems more like a case of looking FOR facts that support your theories then looking AT facts and seeing what they point to relistically.

First off to enter into this conspiracy belief you first must believe that hundreds if not thousands of Americans all entered into a plot to conspire against their own country men so Bush can start a war in the Middle East (which we already had begun under the prior two or three presidents).

And among those FBI, CIA and Pentagon employees that plotted to murder their own co-workers and countrymen and not ONE of those in the know on this blew the whistle in a five year period?

Oh and my favorite part of what you have to swallow to buy into this whole thing... that Bush was smart enough to actually plan this whole event flawlessly and in the 7 months he had while in office.

You can sit back and accept all of that as fact?  And yet somehow even though there are missing people and families weeping for their loved ones who were on a plane that hit the pentagon you can open your minds to the idea that it wasn't really a plane but some kind of missle?

Tell me, when's the next time you're having Elvis over for dinner?

What needs to be accepted to even humor the possibilities of some of these ideas is just too much.  I'm sorry, it's tin foil hat kind of stuff here folks.

Hundreds or thousands? I guess you've never heard of compartmentalization.

How many CIA, FBI, etc. were killed that day? Assuming there was a whistleblower what form would the whistle blowing take? A 60 Minutes special?

It wasn't planned flawlessly. If you'll notice, its full of holes. The issue is the American people don't see the holes for what they are.

Bush planning it? Where did you read that? How could someone reading an upside down story about about a goat while being told about the attack be the master planner. A lot of asses pucker everytime he opens his mouth.

Elvis doesn't like the brand of peanut butter at my house.

[KBCraig]

How could someone reading an upside down story about about a goat while being told about the attack be the master planner.

Are you talking about this photo?

http://www.snopes.com/photos/bushbook.asp

[tracysaboe]

Does this make me a 'moderate' conspiracy theorist?

Tracy

[hook]

How could someone reading an upside down story about about a goat while being told about the attack be the master planner.

Are you talking about this photo?

http://www.snopes.com/photos/bushbook.asp

Nope.

[Just Anonymous]

Never attribute to conspiracy, that which can be attributed to incompetence.

Tracy

Guys, I'm sorry but this seems more like a case of looking FOR facts that support your theories then looking AT facts and seeing what they point to relistically.

...

Tell me, when's the next time you're having Elvis over for dinner?

What needs to be accepted to even humor the possibilities of some of these ideas is just too much.  I'm sorry, it's tin foil hat kind of stuff here folks.

I don't think I'm gonna do any more arguing back and forth kind of deal.  Besides it just causes strife, and that's no fun.   The only thing I want to mention is that if you have not seen the information presented in the videos (especially the first 2 videos mentioned), then I would suggest at least taking a look at them.  One of the biggest problems in regards to 9/11 is that most Americans absolutely refuse to even look at the info.  Of course, this may not be true of you all on this forum.  Anyeays, all I would suggest is to commit to looking at the first 2 videos (or at the very least, the 2nd video), and then leave the topic alone afterwards, if that's what you want.  Look at the evidence and see if it leads anywhere (or if the evidence is even right), and make a decision based on that.

[Just Anonymous]

Never attribute to conspiracy, that which can be attributed to incompetence.

Tracy

Guys, I'm sorry but this seems more like a case of looking FOR facts that support your theories then looking AT facts and seeing what they point to relistically.

...

Tell me, when's the next time you're having Elvis over for dinner?

What needs to be accepted to even humor the possibilities of some of these ideas is just too much.  I'm sorry, it's tin foil hat kind of stuff here folks.

I think I'll try and limit the debating back and forther from now on.  Anyways it just causes strife, and that's no fun.   The only thing I want to mention is that if you have not yet seen the information presented in the videos (especially the first 2 videos mentioned), then I would suggest at least taking a look at them.  One of the biggest problems in regards to 9/11 is that most Americans absolutely refuse to even look at the info.  Of course, this may not be true of you all on this forum.  Anyways, all I would suggest is to commit to looking at the first 2 videos (or at the very least, the 2nd video), and then leave the topic alone afterwards, if that's what you want.  Look at the evidence and see if it leads anywhere (or if the evidence is even right), and make a decision based on that.
P.S. I hope this reply doesn't cause any strife between us, especially referring to those I've replied to.

[Marcy]

I enter this discussion with a little trepedation, since I don't have the knowledge of physics that maybe some others here have.  However, I can answer one question intuitively that was brought up earlier.  Why use airplanes when simple explosives would have been enough to bring down the WTC buildings?  The answer is terror.  Buildings can and do blow up (a natural gas explosion).  Planes can and do crash, sometimes into buildings.  Intentional use of planes as explosive devises is horrifying beyond belief.  Terrified people do a lot of dumb things, like give in wholesale to the promise of security (even if it is never actually delivered).

I don't know what the government knew and when it knew it, but my dad's a pilot and I do know that planes flying outside their flight plans are scrambled by jet fighters from NORAD.  This did not happen on 9/11.  Reports of deviations from flight plans were not made in a timely manner to NORAD, NORAD dilly-dallied before dispatching, and when it did dispatch, its planes failed to intercept.  Massive government failure to do its constitutional duty -- and no one, but no one lost their job over it. 

36% of Americans now believe that the government is complicit in 9/11.  (50% also believe there were WMD's in Iraq, which shoots the truth-is-well-known theory in the foot).  Perhaps the ultimate test is "cui bono", Latin for "who benefits?"  Bush shot up in popularity, as did Guiliani.  Cheney's Halliburton made big bucks churning out war materiel.  The whole federal infrastructure got a shot in the arm, with a new federal agency, the Patriot Act, two wars and incredibly more power over the lives of the average American.  The reason planes flew into the WTC is that they were the terror necessary to effect all those changes:  buildings blown up (by Islamic terrorists) alone probably wouldn't have done it, and planes hijacked (by Islamic terrorists) and crashed probably wouldn't have done it.  Whoever orchestrated 9/11 needed Drama...and by god, they got it.