Dada in Federal Court 7/17 .... leads to 4 days in jail

[Dave Ridley]

And another one. I never did figure out why Dada didn't want to protest WITH the rest of us!

My theory is that protests are most effective when the demonstrators are spread out a bit...they are easier to see at a distance and drivers have more time to read each sign.  I did explain this at the time but you might not have been in earshot.  Of course I think the even better thing is if they are in clumps of two so each demonstrator has someone to talk to.

[cathleeninnh]

As I pointed out to Matt (glad to meet you, BTW), of the dozen or so of us who were concerned enought to come out yesterday, under similar circumstances, it is likely we would have a dozen different responses to the charge. And after many more of these occur, hindsight will show us which responses were BINGO successes. But that doesn't make this or any other response less important. We are changeable people in a changing world being oppressed and watched by changing populations. Every action moves us in sometimes unpredictable ways.

We will make our choices and hope the results lead toward a better future.

Cathleen

[Dave Ridley]

any other thoughts pro or con regarding whether I should appeal?

The only problem I have with appealing is the concern that it would trigger taxpayer expense.  Everyone seems to be indicating that is not the case, including the judge who basically said the courts have too much time on their hands and are getting paid the same regardless.   I suggested to him that they should shut down the unneeded courts of course. 

Anyway this seems to at least alleviate my moral qualms about appealing.  Maybe I will appeal just to stay in the fight until they bust through the last trench line.  That I could do with or without an attorney I assume.  If someone wants to come forward and play attorney pro bono I have no immediate objections.  I don't have any interest in putting anyone on the spot however by asking them individually.

[Dreepa]

does everyone know that law?

ignorance is no defense...

But they make 10000 of laws that we can never know about.
How about the 'secret laws' that TSA has?  Why can't I get a list of what is not allowed on a plane?  I had my allen wrench stolen from me by TSA.. when I asked for the list of 'forbidden' items I was told it was a secret.

[error]

And people wonder why I've just stopped flying.

Dada, NOW I get it.

[Dreepa]

probably because they had a slam dunk case with the public information Dada provided.

So.... The ticket he may (or may not) pay is $125.

How much did the gov spend on wasted productivity?  (They had a bunch of the IRS people in Concord).
Plus gas to drive them up there.
Plus court time.
Plus the 'extra' cops.

All for this case Frank? Seems a waste of time on their side.

[FrankChodorov]

does everyone know that law?

ignorance is no defense...

But they make 10000 of laws that we can never know about.
How about the 'secret laws' that TSA has?  Why can't I get a list of what is not allowed on a plane?  I had my allen wrench stolen from me by TSA.. when I asked for the list of 'forbidden' items I was told it was a secret.

your not going to get me to defend secret laws...

but don't you think if dada was going to engage in non-violent CD protest he would know exactly what his potential liabilities would be - what specific laws he was going to be breaking?

[FrankChodorov]

probably because they had a slam dunk case with the public information Dada provided.

So.... The ticket he may (or may not) pay is $125.

How much did the gov spend on wasted productivity?  (They had a bunch of the IRS people in Concord).
Plus gas to drive them up there.
Plus court time.
Plus the 'extra' cops.

All for this case Frank? Seems a waste of time on their side.

from their perspective they are having to decide where do you draw the line?

in the case of Russell - it was crossing between general purpose area and the IRS office...w/dada it was distributing handbills.

should they allow massive CD to shutdown the IRS office in Keene?

[Dreepa]

so you are suggesting that the distribution of "handbills" as a redress of greivances is NOT "Plus" because it impedes no one and the handbills are "transacting business" pertinent in some way to the business of the IRS?

Frank you make a good arguement.
I think (and someone can correct me), that Dada was silent and only gave her the 'handbill' as a way of communicating with her...ie transacting business. Distracting NO ONE. Then when asked to leave he did.

[FrankChodorov]

so you are suggesting that the distribution of "handbills" as a redress of greivances is NOT "Plus" because it impedes no one and the handbills are "transacting business" pertinent in some way to the business of the IRS?

Frank you make a good arguement.
I think (and someone can correct me), that Dada was silent and only gave her the 'handbill' as a way of communicating with her...ie transacting business. Distracting NO ONE. Then when asked to leave he did.

not interupting, not distracting, but DISRUPTING.

the transacting of IRS business has to be specifically pertinent as it realtes to the individual who does the transacting...if it is not then it is defacto DISRUPTING.

the IRS agent has no control over the IRS policy...the redress of greivances has to be to federal policy makers in a place specific to their function (federally owned building or their office) or within the common right of ways.

[Dave Ridley]

Couple more recollections worth mentioning...i'll try to post them chronologically.

the concord demonstration generated maybe 25 honks from cars at the modestly traveled intersection over an hour or so.  We didn't get any opposition that I know of (in keene we usually get some).   It was great to have all the new visitor faces there...error , tim from chicago and matthew from georgia.   Seth Cohn showed up for both the demo and the hearing which was a shock and I appreciated it!

We didn't demonstrate in front of the courthouse itself but in front of a different part of the federal compound where there's more traffic

Once we went inside the building it took maybe 15 minutes for us all to get thru the metal detector.   The metal detector guards were uneven in their disposition, most didn't do anything memorable but one started giving Bill a hassle about an item; wanted to hang onto it without giving him a receipt.  Bill hassled him back some and I asked the guard what the problem was.    He said he was talking to Bill not me.  I indicated that since he was now talking to me, he was now talking to me.

I realized everyone had gotten quiet and was listening to our exchange, but it ended pretty fast and we were on our way. 

[Dave Ridley]

After we got a little away from the metal detectors and started taking off our raingear, a man came up to me and introduced himself.  His last name was Fief or Feef or something, and he said he was "with the U.S. Attorney's office." 

I shook hands with him and told him it was good to meet him but asked him if he felt comfortable about prosecuting me.  He didn't seem to expect that question and said that was irrelevant.   I asked him if what he was doing was right and got a similar response.  He asked me if I wanted to proceed and said if I did there would be a bench trial and they had witnesses.  I asked him if the witnesses were here at taxpayer expense.  I think he said he didn't know but probably so.  I think I maybe said I didn't think that was right but I'm not sure if I said this or not.

He asked again if I wanted to proceed.  I told him I had no representations to make about what I might or might not do, except that I intended to enter the courtroom.  He seemed to get a little more terse as the conversation went on and then left.

[Dave Ridley]

Once we got inside the courtroom there were three cases about to be heard where the defendants were present, ours was the second.

The courtroom visitor area was small so it was almost standing room only.  One of the court personnel asked if we would like them to bring us an extra chair or two.  Since no one else answered I asked if this would involve any taxpayer expense.  There was a lot of laughter but only from our side of the room

There were five other cases where the defendants had failed to show and the judge requested warrants be issued for their arrest.  It was mostly u.s. park or forest stuff apparently.   The gal in front of me was apparently in court for camping in the wrong spot!   

[Lloyd Danforth]

I'm wondering what size Allen wrench Chris caries and for what

[Quantrill]

not interupting, not distracting, but DISRUPTING.

the transacting of IRS business has to be specifically pertinent as it realtes to the individual who does the transacting...if it is not then it is defacto DISRUPTING.

So if a friend or family member calls an IRS employee during business hours would they be in the same situation as Dada???