For Californians only!

[LocalParty.Org]

Hello Californians,

It may be strange to hop on a NH cart, far outside our state, but if the vehicle is available? Why not!

This is an invitation for Californians to discuss if we should follow the Libertarians of New Hampshire and select one, two or three cities/counties/districts in California as a destination for Libertarians. As we all know so well, our political system favors those parties with a concentrated following in certain areas; anything else fails in our system of winner-takes-all.

The NH's are very admirable in being the first to promote this idea of concentrating people in a certain geographical area, and I suggest we keep the ideal to move to NH as the prime ideal, even though California is a wonderful place to live too, ofcourse. Nevertheless, it is pragmatic to find out if we can create concentrated political areas outside NH, because the movement could then become stronger tenfold if we learn how to get into the seats of power wherever we are able to concentrate ourselves. More important than finding one specific spot is to find out how we can empower ourselves in as many spots as possible.

Naturally, those places in California where the odds are better should be discussed. So, is anyone from California ready to put in their first two cents on what locations have the better options? Are there statistics and figures out there on which to base the best possible options? Does anyone know where most Libertarians in California live?

[Ear]

Why are you posting this 'for Californians only' message in a forum that, in its entirety, is for NEW HAMPSHIRE residents (or those planning to move to New Hampshire) only?

Please go poach somewhere else.  I understand that you are not being malicious, but I find your actions unethical and destructive.  If you think there are so many Californians who are only willing to relocate within California, then start your own forums and post about it there.

By the way, I'm a Californian, born and raised in Los Angeles... and I'm moving to New Hampshire.

[Braddogg]

      Get on, or get out.

[error]

California is one of the few places in this country I consider a lost cause and recommend everyone get the hell out of as soon as possible. (The other is Florida.)

[Pat McCotter]

Why are you posting this 'for Californians only' message in a forum that, in its entirety, is for NEW HAMPSHIRE residents (or those planning to move to New Hampshire) only?

Please go poach somewhere else.  I understand that you are not being malicious, but I find your actions unethical and destructive.  If you think there are so many Californians who are only willing to relocate within California, then start your own forums and post about it there.

By the way, I'm a Californian, born and raised in Los Angeles... and I'm moving to New Hampshire.

This was posted in the "Outside NH" section of the forum. That looks like the right place for it.

[aries]

I dont condone anyone living in a state that has a B or above from the Brady Campaign
Or at least one that has over 10m people.

[Dreepa]

I left CA  behind and moved to NH.

[LocalParty.Org]

If you left CA behind and moved to NH to further the Libertarian cause? Not only will you hear me say Excellent, but you can read that your move from California to NH is in no way a contradiction of what I wrote at the beginning of this thread.

The goal stated is still to have people move from California to NH, but for those who do not want to go to NH (or elsewhere) and who are on the move within California, it is in their interest and that of the Libertarian Party to appoint/choose two or three locations in CA as preferred places to move to. Our system works in such a way that only concentrated groups can come to power, so we should think exactly that way too if we want more power/representation. Why do you think every Green person from the USA moved to SF Bay Area? So they could be powerful there! The entire nation is cut up in hundreds of little segments each with their own kind of political color. And there is no conflict in what I ask from other Californians with a Libertarian feel.

Why is there no conflict? Because the NH movement is a movement of all Libertarian Americans to NH State! Within NH there is no preference of which city or county or district movers should be moving to. Equally, those in California are not asking others to come live in California (it's busy enough here already - stay away) to help improve us at our State level, but for those who are on the move inside our state it is important to have some guidance as to go live in what city, county or district to improve our standing at these lower governmental levels.

Should this question be posed somewhere else? Maybe. Maybe not. This website receives a lot of interest from people across the nation, and maybe others want to do something similar. Maybe NH's can find some information posted on this thread of interest for themselves (like why not elect city/county/district (a single one or several) within NH to get more power quicker?).

[error]

(like why not elect a single city/county/district within NH to get more power quicker?).

This was tried and didn't go over very well. Go look for Free Town Project.

[LocalParty.Org]

This website does not say anything about a Free Town Project. Could you elaborate for future readers of this thread?

What I was able to find is that the project is still ongoing, still "on the move."

http://freetownproject.com/new_hampshire_town.html

And maybe (but I am just posing this as a question, nothing else) there is something going on with this project that undermines itself; something that would be avoided somewhere else, because when something new is tried in three different places, you get three different outcomes. Maybe one of them will be successful, the other versions not - and copying the successful version somewhere else may lead to a success there too.

[KurtDaBear]

If I were going to stay in California (I am a Calif. resident now and have been for more than 20 years.) and try to do the most I could for Libertarian causes, I would move to extreme northern Calif., i.e., up around Weed and the Mount Shasta Area.  There is a movement up there to create the State of Franklin, which proposes that Northern Calif. and parts of Southern Oregon and Northwestern Nevada should form a 51st state of Franklin, founded, as I understand it, on libertarian principles.

If you look up how Californians voted by counties on the initiatives on the Nov. ballot, you'll see where this trend is strongest by considering the pro- or anti-libertarian values of each initiative.  (All these stats are available on the CA Sec. of State's election results website.)

But as the folks from NH are saying, Calif. is probably a lost cause because if anyone were to have a bit of success up there, it would attract negative attention; and so many oppressive, anti-freedom laws are already on the Calif. books that they would be able to neuter and/or crush such a movement--just think of the gun-tax-smoking-zoning-environmental laws alone.

For example, a group of which I am a member recently received a large contribution from a local corporation that helped us defeat a countywide sales tax increase.  We later learned that a delegation of city and county officials had visited that company and told them (off the record, of course) that they'd better get with the program and stay away from us or it would be difficult for them if they ever needed to expand or deal with an environmental problem, etc.  So this is the kind of thing you face in Calif.--the entire establishment is against you and a culture of coercion exists.

A few points about the deal in NH vs. Calif.:  1) This is not a large "L" Libertarian thing; it is the Free State Project (FSP), which is not a "L"ibertarian project but is libertarian only in the small "l" sense, 2) you should visit NH to get an idea of how extremely wacked out Calif. is because when you live in CA you tend to forget how weird and extreme the state is, 3) Calif. has more than 30 million people, most of whom don't know or give a damn about political philosophy, so can't even understand the hairs we're splitting here, and 4) the Green Party is now regularly outpolling the Libertarians in the majority of statewide elections in Calif.

This brings us back to how the FSP idea got started in the first place, when Jason Sorens recognized that libertarians were too few and far between to ever have any real impact on the national consciousness, but that if a significant number of them moved to one small state that already had a freedom orientation, they could help create a working example of how libertarian principles can make life better for everyone.  (And to make this long story short, we all had an election a few years back and NH won from among 10 candidates, and things are already falling into place.)

[Braddogg]

While there is no specific city for FSPers to go, officially, there seem to be a few places where people have congregated.  For the politicos, Concord is a natural fit.  Manchester is good for those seeking a more active social scene.  Many of the radicals (such as the Kannings) are in Keene.  Grafton seems to be a popular place as well.  While none of these areas have majority voting blocks, there are some places where liberty-lovers are being elected in droves (like Salem).  Here are a few threads that discuss the different concentrations, and there are others on the boards out there:

http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=4461.0
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=176.0
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=1233.0
http://forum.soulawakenings.com/index.php?topic=5741.0

[aries]

(like why not elect a single city/county/district within NH to get more power quicker?).

This was tried and didn't go over very well. Go look for Free Town Project.

And beside that NH towns and especially counties arent very autonomous

[Dreepa]

Perfect Braddog.

Also ... sometimes it only takes one or two people in a town to find others that are likeminded that live there already.
I think that FSPers in smaller towns would be really wellserved if they started with local politics.  A few people can make a HUGE difference.

[LocalParty.Org]

If I were going to stay in California (I am a Calif. resident now and have been for more than 20 years.) and try to do the most I could for Libertarian causes, I would move to extreme northern Calif., i.e., up around Weed and the Mount Shasta Area.  There is a movement up there to create the State of Franklin, as I understand it, on libertarian principles.

But as the folks from NH are saying, Calif. is probably a lost cause because if anyone were to have a bit of success up there, it would attract negative attention; and so many oppressive, anti-freedom laws are already on the Calif. books that they would be able to neuter and/or crush such a movement.

Definitively good information. The more we mention what trends are out there in California, the more people can get informed (me, for instance). I strongly disagree with the lost cause attitude though. This nations is not a black and white balancing act of power, it is divvied up in fifty states! And those fifty states are not black and white balancing acts of power either, they are divvied up in cities and counties (and what more). Heck, each issue, each proposition and each seat is a power game ? and beforehand we can know that the Libertarian agenda is not going to prevail everywhere. But power in the US works on the basis of concentration, be it at the local level, higher up or based on issues. That means that each and every concentration possible is worth the effort of concentrating.

This is the Outside NH segment of the NH Underground website, and if you read my words carefully, I deliver strong support for the NH-trek. But only as a nation-wide state-level Libertarian phenomenon. I argue that we should not stop concentrating there, while concentrating elsewhere should also be done without interfering with the NH-trek. And that is possible.

Is there more info on California out there? Should we avoid cities, or should we look inside cities as well and find board and council seats that may be of interest to us?