New 6-12 School in Keene - Monadnock area

[CNHT]

One students writing does not prove or disprove the effectiveness of an education method.

Of course not.

But it's representative -- very representative -- of what's coming out of public schools these days. This is NOT an isolated case.

Thank you error. It is true -- it's all too representative.

I like to look at education subjects as one big gourmet meal:  a little spelling, a little grammar, a little composition theory and then the 'project' of implementation which brings in the creative use of these skills.

I would no more throw a 7 year old in a corner and tell them to manage their own reading program any more than I would teach someone to learn how to fly a plane by 100% experimentation without a little background knowledge first.

[Rosie the Riveter]

One students writing does not prove or disprove the effectiveness of an education method.

Of course not.

But it's representative -- very representative -- of what's coming out of public schools these days. This is NOT an isolated case.

Right but If I understand her correctly Jane appears to be arguing against using a project based method in a private school as well.

Here is a good overview -- http://www97.intel.com/en/ProjectDesign/Design/

For the record -- I have seen this method work very well and be applied in an interdisciplinary way so as to be comprehensive.

[error]

Here is a good overview -- http://www97.intel.com/en/ProjectDesign/Design/

Holy crap that's some scary stuff.

I suppose the technique could be useful in some circumstances, but notice how it almost invariably starts out with a question designed to elicit a socialist mindset. Example:

Essential Question

• Why do we need others?

Unit Questions

• Which of our community helpers is the most important? 
• Which community helper would you most like to be?

Content Questions

• Who are some community helpers?
• What do community helpers do?

Aside from the questions themselves, the technique teaches and reinforces group behavior and makes the individual subordinate.

And this technique is utterly useless in teaching the essentials of reading, writing, math...

Jane will probably be able to explain it in more depth...

[Rosie the Riveter]

Here is a good overview -- http://www97.intel.com/en/ProjectDesign/Design/

Holy crap that's some scary stuff.

I suppose the technique could be useful in some circumstances, but notice how it almost invariably starts out with a question designed to elicit a socialist mindset. Example:

Essential Question

• Why do we need others?

Unit Questions

• Which of our community helpers is the most important? 
• Which community helper would you most like to be?

Content Questions

• Who are some community helpers?
• What do community helpers do?

Aside from the questions themselves, the technique teaches and reinforces group behavior and makes the individual subordinate.

And this technique is utterly useless in teaching the essentials of reading, writing, math...

Jane will probably be able to explain it in more depth...

It is a method of teaching -- what you teach with it is something different. I think you are confusing the method with the subjects they are choosing. Think of it this way -- I want to learn web design so I design a web site. While I'm writing the copy for the site I work on spelling and grammer. I am learning about the web, I am learning about html and maybe even rails. I work with a web design company owner as a mentor so I learn about starting a small business --  I have a budget for my project and have to report on my progress to my teacher using percent completion and the percent of total dollars to bugeted dollars that I have spent. I have to write a paper giving an overview of my project and give a presentation to my class.

This is just an example -- there are many comprehensive projects that one could undertake to learn just about anything.  I have seen students learn and apply their learning in the "real world".

[NHTA1]

There you go again making assumptions based on incomplete evidence, wild conjecture and BS. The Califronia study you are so apt to refer to , is not only incomplete but failed to look at other variables, such as class size and ESl students.

There exists much research pointing to the effectivenes to Project Based Learning. By the way this is not an entirely new concept, this was used in the early years of public education, referred to as community or civic service.

It's interesting how CNHT claims there is a relationship between Project Learning and the sample of the student's writing she posted. No-where in there was there mention of any other variables. This shows a narrow-minded view of education. To think that only one variable is the cause is simply inane and superficial thinking. She loves to use the word fad when referring to education, we can see what the fads in education during her era got her, a one dimensional view of the world and how students should be taught and even what constitutes knowledge and what is valuable. Maybe we shouls get down on our hands and knees and thank CNHT for enligthening us.  The only thing that is scary here is that she thinks she knows the only way to educate students, and that there are some in this form who agree with her. The fact is no-one truly knows for sure but we are finding that the old methods do not work for today's students.

We cannot teach students nowadays the way they were taught 50 or even 20 years ago. If you were to research the history of opublic school education in our country you would find that our schools were modelled after our factories. In fact many politicians and educators looked at it as their civic duty to train students to become productive factory workers. Unfortunately, this did not require much thought there were routines to follow and deadlines to be met, you didn't question things or you were fired. My Father, Uncles, Aunts and Cousins all worked in factories , many of them died because of the unhealthy working conditions. 

So many of these workers were not taught that they could question the working conditions they were subjected to, or to even think about the possiblity that there might be health risks. They were taught to trust authority implicitly and were taught by Teachers like CNHT that knowing where a comma goes or what hyperbole is, is more important than knowing how to think, analyze, question, and problem solve.

This is again is this string of facts theory that is one dimensional and does not take into account other factors that may affect an outcome.

CNHT's repilies are so full of wholes and contradictions it's hard to know where to begin. One such contradiction is her lament about government being too heavy handed in education. Government is way more active and has way more control in Public Schools rather than Private Schools. The No Child Left Behind Act is a government mandate that is geared towards the memorrization of useless facts , one anithesis of this method is project learning.

I find it interesting that CNHT would assume that since I may be a member of NHTA that I would not agree with her position. This shows at least two things, one the narrowmindeness of this sweeping generlization and two, her realization that there are many who do not agree with her "just the facts maam" method of education.

Finally, I would like to pose a question.  Lets say you were in a car accident and were rushed to the ER, in front of you were two surgeons one, who could spell every word correctly and had impecable grammar but thought one dimensionally about your case, was not flexible and was not able to problem solve with any degree of affectiveness. This surgeon had an OK track record but was limited in what he could do.

The other surgeon couldn't spell to save her life and had only a minimal understanding of grammar and quite franly had little use for it in her line of work, on the other hand she was an icredible problem solver, was flexible and thought about your case from many angles, she had a great track record and had many options due to her way of thinking.

Which would you choose?

[Rosie the Riveter]

There you go again making assumptions based on incomplete evidence, wild conjecture and BS. The Califronia study you are so apt to refer to , is not only incomplete but failed to look at other variables, such as class size and ESl students.

There exists much research pointing to the effectivenes to Project Based Learning. By the way this is not an entirely new concept, this was used in the early years of public education, referred to as community or civic service.

It's interesting how CNHT claims there is a relationship between Project Learning and the sample of the student's writing she posted. No-where in there was there mention of any other variables. This shows a narrow-minded view of education. To think that only one variable is the cause is simply inane and superficial thinking. She loves to use the word fad when referring to education, we can see what the fads in education during her era got her, a one dimensional view of the world and how students should be taught and even what constitutes knowledge and what is valuable. Maybe we shouls get down on our hands and knees and thank CNHT for enligthening us.  The only thing that is scary here is that she thinks she knows the only way to educate students, and that there are some in this form who agree with her. The fact is no-one truly knows for sure but we are finding that the old methods do not work for today's students.

We cannot teach students nowadays the way they were taught 50 or even 20 years ago. If you were to research the history of opublic school education in our country you would find that our schools were modelled after our factories. In fact many politicians and educators looked at it as their civic duty to train students to become productive factory workers. Unfortunately, this did not require much thought there were routines to follow and deadlines to be met, you didn't question things or you were fired. My Father, Uncles, Aunts and Cousins all worked in factories , many of them died because of the unhealthy working conditions. 

So many of these workers were not taught that they could question the working conditions they were subjected to, or to even think about the possiblity that there might be health risks. They were taught to trust authority implicitly and were taught by Teachers like CNHT that knowing where a comma goes or what hyperbole is, is more important than knowing how to think, analyze, question, and problem solve.

This is again is this string of facts theory that is one dimensional and does not take into account other factors that may affect an outcome.

CNHT's repilies are so full of wholes and contradictions it's hard to know where to begin. One such contradiction is her lament about government being too heavy handed in education. Government is way more active and has way more control in Public Schools rather than Private Schools. The No Child Left Behind Act is a government mandate that is geared towards the memorrization of useless facts , one anithesis of this method is project learning.

I find it interesting that CNHT would assume that since I may be a member of NHTA that I would not agree with her position. This shows at least two things, one the narrowmindeness of this sweeping generlization and two, her realization that there are many who do not agree with her "just the facts maam" method of education.

Finally, I would like to pose a question.  Lets say you were in a car accident and were rushed to the ER, in front of you were two surgeons one, who could spell every word correctly and had impecable grammar but thought one dimensionally about your case, was not flexible and was not able to problem solve with any degree of affectiveness. This surgeon had an OK track record but was limited in what he could do.

The other surgeon couldn't spell to save her life and had only a minimal understanding of grammar and quite franly had little use for it in her line of work, on the other hand she was an icredible problem solver, was flexible and thought about your case from many angles, she had a great track record and had many options due to her way of thinking.

Which would you choose?

Though I think that worksheet drill and kill methods are lacking and teaching critical thinking and problem solving is paramount -- CNHT did agree that one size does not fit all -- and did make some good points to that regard.

[JMSEEEL]

Hi All:

Thank you again for your replies. WOW ! There is a lot here I am not sure that we could respond to all the comments. We do want so say upfront that our intention in posting this survey was not to open up anyone for attack. However, we are glad that is has prompted some debate and reflection.

We feel the need to explain our position a bit further as it is related to Project Based Learning. Our view is that Project Based Learning allows you to go into depth in ways that text book learning does not. This is not to say that text book learning does hot have its merits. Our belief is that it truly depends on the approach taken to Project Based Learning. We have had great success implementing Project Based Learning while improving students skills.

We also believe that Project Based Learning can be difficult to implement in many school settings for a variety of reasons; as one poster pointed out ...class size.  This is one reason why we are proposing small class size. Project Based Learning also allows educators to tailor instruction based on individual needs, for example if a student is struggling with his or her writing the teacher can address this within the context of the project.  We have had much success approaching Project Based Learning in this way, and have witnessed students who previously had not had success in school, come alive because they were given an opportunity to explore something that truly interested them.

Now, this is not to say that Project Based Learning is the only way to educate students , though we do believe it is an affective way. The pursuit of education requires balance just like any other aspect of our lives.

We are not sure where we stand related to the writing sample being representative of what is coming out of public schools these days.  It would be so easy and tempting for us to jump on this as a way to further our position and or the need for our school on the one hand, on the other we are reluctant to support such a position.

We believe that project based learning as well as other methods are useful in teaching writing skiils, we found that students are more likely to write and write well if they are writing about something that captures them. We have explored different types of writing for different audiences , such as a research paper or essay all within the same project. This afforded everyone the opportunity to compare different ways of writing about the same topic and gave teachers insight into stenghts and challenges each student had. 

This approach was not only used for writing but in every subject area , we also used an integrated approach to projects when it made sense to do so. We are not surprised that some educators have not had success using this method, some schools have so much going on that there are not quite ready for Project Based Learning. This is mostly do to class size and lack of resources.

As one poster so eloquently put it "I would no more throw a 7 year old in a corner and tell them to manage their own reading program any more than I would teach someone to learn how to fly a plane by 100% experimentation without a little background knowledge first". Nor would we however, we do think that Project Based Learning can be a method in which one could teach reading.

An example of this might be, a second grade class working on a project to plant milkweed for Monarch butterflies. Couldn't appropriate grade level readings be selected about butterflies and the dynamics of reading taught through these selections? These readings can take the place of, supplement or used in conjucture with student selected readings, of course at the appropriate grade level.

There are many directions this project can go in and it can be used to teach a variety of topics appropriate for the grade level.  Project Based Learning does not mean you ignore the fact that students need certain skills, PBL can be looked at as a way to teach , taking students step by step through a process. We found that students are more likely to see the relevance and care about they are learning when they see the applications.

We do not believe that PBL is a way to indoctrinate students, in fact it allows students to form their own opinions in ways that lecture and text book learning do not. The fact that a student may take part in a project that plants milkweed for butterflies does not make him or her an environmentalist (or anything else for that matter) anymore than believeing that "all men were created equal" makes you a liberal.

We believe that all posters in here have much common ground and that there are a lot of wonderful ideas and discussions taking place. We would however, appreciate questions being posed to us rather than assumptions made. We also feel that we have been respectful in this forum and are entitled to the same treatment, debate and discourse are wonderful and we truly encourage it, there are ways to do this and still be respectfull. Please feel free to ask questions and post comments. Thank you again.

Sincerely,
JMSEEEL

[Rosie the Riveter]

Hi All:

Thank you again for your replies. WOW ! There is a lot here I am not sure that we could respond to all the comments. We do want so say upfront that our intention in posting this survey was not to open up anyone for attack. However, we are glad that is has prompted some debate and reflection.

We feel the need to explain our position a bit further as it is related to Project Based Learning. Our view is that Project Based Learning allows you to go into depth in ways that text book learning does not. This is not to say that text book learning does hot have its merits. Our belief is that it truly depends on the approach taken to Project Based Learning. We have had great success implementing Project Based Learning while improving students skills.

We also believe that Project Based Learning can be difficult to implement in many school settings for a variety of reasons; as one poster pointed out ...class size.  This is one reason why we are proposing small class size. Project Based Learning also allows educators to tailor instruction based on individual needs, for example if a student is struggling with his or her writing the teacher can address this within the context of the project.  We have had much success approaching Project Based Learning in this way, and have witnessed students who previously had not had success in school, come alive because they were given an opportunity to explore something that truly interested them.

Now, this is not to say that Project Based Learning is the only way to educate students , though we do believe it is an affective way. The pursuit of education requires balance just like any other aspect of our lives.

We are not sure where we stand related to the writing sample being representative of what is coming out of public schools these days.  It would be so easy and tempting for us to jump on this as a way to further our position and or the need for our school on the one hand, on the other we are reluctant to support such a position.

We believe that project based learning as well as other methods are useful in teaching writing skiils, we found that students are more likely to write and write well if they are writing about something that captures them. We have explored different types of writing for different audiences , such as a research paper or essay all within the same project. This afforded everyone the opportunity to compare different ways of writing about the same topic and gave teachers insight into stenghts and challenges each student had. 

This approach was not only used for writing but in every subject area , we also used an integrated approach to projects when it made sense to do so. We are not surprised that some educators have not had success using this method, some schools have so much going on that there are not quite ready for Project Based Learning. This is mostly do to class size and lack of resources.

As one poster so eloquently put it "I would no more throw a 7 year old in a corner and tell them to manage their own reading program any more than I would teach someone to learn how to fly a plane by 100% experimentation without a little background knowledge first". Nor would we however, we do think that Project Based Learning can be a method in which one could teach reading.

An example of this might be, a second grade class working on a project to plant milkweed for Monarch butterflies. Couldn't appropriate grade level readings be selected about butterflies and the dynamics of reading taught through these selections? These readings can take the place of, supplement or used in conjucture with student selected readings, of course at the appropriate grade level.

There are many directions this project can go in and it can be used to teach a variety of topics appropriate for the grade level.  Project Based Learning does not mean you ignore the fact that students need certain skills, PBL can be looked at as a way to teach , taking students step by step through a process. We found that students are more likely to see the relevance and care about they are learning when they see the applications.

We do not believe that PBL is a way to indoctrinate students, in fact it allows students to form their own opinions in ways that lecture and text book learning do not. The fact that a student may take part in a project that plants milkweed for butterflies does not make him or her an environmentalist (or anything else for that matter) anymore than believeing that "all men were created equal" makes you a liberal.

We believe that all posters in here have much common ground and that there are a lot of wonderful ideas and discussions taking place. We would however, appreciate questions being posed to us rather than assumptions made. We also feel that we have been respectful in this forum and are entitled to the same treatment, debate and discourse are wonderful and we truly encourage it, there are ways to do this and still be respectfull. Please feel free to ask questions and post comments. Thank you again.

Sincerely,
JMSEEEL

I appreciate your clarification and am glad that you took the time to post again. Sometimes the debates on this forum can get heated -- but overall it is a fun, kind and supportive crowd. It is interesting how your post turned into a discussion about the merits of project based learning and public schools. It sounds like your school will focus on each individual childs needs and that is one thing we all seem to agree on. 

I also have a team working on starting a school (private or charter) in the Manchester area so I would still love to hear more about how you plan to raise the money to have a tuition free private school --I hope you can find the time to reply or send me a message.

Keep up the great work.

[NHTA1]

Thank you JMSEEEL for replying. I agree that you have been respectful in this forum, I wish others could do the same. I admit I have not been totally respectful it just irks me when people jump to try and discredit rather than seek clarification. It's kind of sad when the only thing one can do is post a link whose research is flawed as a way to discredit rather than take the time to think through what is being put out there. It has to make you wonder about such individuals agenda and mindset.

You have been respectful to those who quite frankly do not deserve your respect. I applaud you for your patience and your willingness to explain your position in a respectful manner even when others choose to try  to discredit what you are trying to do.

NHTA

[Rosie the Riveter]

I admit I have not been totally respectful it just irks me when people jump to try and discredit rather than seek clarification.

You are not alone -- It is very easy to fall into this trap and say something on a message board you would never say in person. Over the weekend I was at a community Dropout Summit  and it was amazing to see so many people from so many backgrouds and of so many different schools of thought getting along and coming up with ideas and solutions that everyone could agree on.

Sometimes debates in person are much more effective 

[NHTA1]

I agree that debates cane be much more affective in person. I think debates are also more affective when the participants don't rush to discredit by posting articles or research with a particular agenda. The name of the game is objectivity.

[Russell Kanning]

Sorry for all the attacks .... but since this is a forum .... they occur.

[KBCraig]

I agree that debates cane be much more affective in person. I think debates are also more affective ...

You don't happen to teach children to spell, do you?

[NHTA1]

You don't happen to know the difference between affect and effect do you? Listen son if you would read everything in context you would know. Try to focus on the content and not on inane details as you try to discredit someone , much like others who post in here with their pedantic rants.

[Rosie the Riveter]

After reading this -- now even I'm confused -- and I thought I knew this stuff

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_spelprob.html

Affect and Effect

Meanings for the most common uses:

Affect

1. af?fect (transitive verb) [Middle English, from affectus, past participle of afficere]

to produce an effect upon, as a: to produce a material influence upon or alteration in <paralysis affected his limbs> b: to act upon (as a person or a person's mind or feelings) so as to bring about a response; influence


Effect

1. ef?fect (noun) [Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin effectus, from efficere to bring about, from ex- out (of) + facere to make, do]

1a: purport; intent <the effect of their statement was to incite anger> b: basic meaning; essence <her argument had the effect of a plea for justice>
2: something that inevitably follows an antecedent (as a cause or agent) <environmental devastation is one effect of unchecked industrial expansion>
3: an outward sign; appearance <the makeup created the effect of old age on their faces>
4: accomplishment; fulfillment <the effect of years of hard work>
5: power to bring about a result; influence <the content itself of television is therefore less important than its effect>
6 plural: movable property; goods <personal effects>
7a: a distinctive impression <the color gives the effect of being warm> b: the creation of a desired impression <her tears were purely for effect> c (1): something designed to produce a distinctive or desired impression, usually used in plural (2) plural: special effects
8: the quality or state of being operative; operation <the law goes into effect next week>
in effect: in substance; virtually <the committee agreed to what was in effect a reduction in the hourly wage>
to the effect: with the meaning <issued a statement to the effect that he would resign>



Meanings for less common uses:

Affect:

2. af?fect (transitive verb)

1: to make a display of liking or using; cultivate <affect a worldly manner>
2: to put on a pretense of; feign <affect indifference, though deeply hurt>
3. af?fect (noun) [pronunciation: stress on first syllable, unlike verb forms of this word]

the conscious subjective aspect of an emotion considered apart from bodily changes <he displayed a distressing lack of affect>


Effect

2. ef?fect (transitive verb)

1: to cause to come into being <the citizens were able to effect a change in government policy>
2a: to bring about often by surmounting obstacles; accomplish <effect a settlement of a dispute> b: to put into operation <the duty of the legislature to effect the will of the citizens>

Usage: The confusion of the verbs affect and effect not only is quite common but has a long history. The verb effect was used in place of affect (1, above) as early as 1494 and in place of affect (2, above) as early as 1652. If you think you want to use the verb effect but are not certain, check the definitions here. The noun affect is sometimes mistakenly used for the noun effect. Except when your topic is psychology, you will seldom need the noun affect.