You have the right to remain topless

[Dreepa]

[
Of course the bible never explicitly says anything about nudity itself per sae.

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
Genesis 3:7
7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves

[MaineShark]

I don't know why you have to be such a jerk and belittling and know-it-allish about everything. If you read what I wrote. "From a Christian (or at least the way I was brought up Christian) perspective," that means I'm not saying it's the final authority. I'm just trying to explain how many mainstream Christians think about it.

Uh, I'd suggest at this juncture that you get out a little more, if you think that was "belittling" or whatnot.

When you say "So public nudity was looked down upon in Ancient Jewish and Christian cultures more because they cared about the person and felt it was self destructive behavior to their current and future intiment relationships," you are making a statement of fact, not expressing an opinion.  Hence, "setting yourself up as the final authority."  Your statement is not borne out by the actual facts.

It's certainly a lot easier to not lust after a women if she's fully clothed. On the other hand -- the skanky stuff women wear sometimes is actually more enticing then simply being naked. And you can lust after somebody who's fully clothed too. Ultimately, everybody is responsible for gaurding their own thoughts.

Statistically, children brought up in social nudist environments wait until later ages than children brought up in anti-nudity environments, on average.  It's not the lack of "skanky" clothing... it's altogether healthier to respect the human body for what it is, rather than sexualizing simple nudity.  Nudity only becomes sexualized when a culture deems to do so.  Nudity has nothing to do with lust unless the participants think it does.  Someone who doesn't associate nudity with sexuality won't find it difficult "to not lust after a woman" just because she isn't dressed.  The connection from nudity to lust simply won't occur to him.

Regarding women being property of "husband, father, brother, etc." Many anciet cultures believed that, but ancient Israel wasn't one of them. Their's nothing in the Old testament or New that ever states that. Although I'll admit in practice many of the levitician rules designed for cleanliness did put more of a burden on women then men.

I'd go find some tidbits from Leviticus, but we're getting astray of the topic...  Still... Who is prohibited from covetting?

Joe

[Caleb]

Gonna have to side with Tracy on this one.  From the Christian perspective (please don't quote Leviticus, that is Old Testament, which Christ abolished) a person's intent is more important than what they do.  Obviously, killing someone is wrong, but Jesus' point was that if you didn't hate someone, you wouldn't kill them.  So Christians are supposed to work on who they are inside, and when that inner person is changed, the outer man (what we do) will be changed.

How does that relate to nudity?

It's all about the person's intention.  Is nudity wrong in and of itself?  No, because it's accepted attire in Africa and the amazon forest, where the birthday suit is the only suit most know.  As far as I know, I was born naked. 

Greeks had a very tolerant view toward nudity.  Why did Paul circumcise Timothy?  Obviously there were people who saw Timothy naked ... communal baths and all.  Some of those communal baths might have even been ... mixed gender. <gasp>

Early Christians baptized naked.  Why?  Seems to me they didn't have clothes that dried out very good back then, so most water activities were done in the buff.  Would I baptize someone naked?  Sure, if that's what the custom is or was.  I don't think that's the custom here, though, and in fact that custom would offend a lot of people here.

But let's be honest here ... isn't much of modern "nudism" about sex?  Some say, "no way, it's about liberation".  OK, fine, if that's your intention, then as Paul says, "all things are lawful, provided they are done lawfully." But I tend to think that there are a large number of people for whom it is about sex.  When I see a good looking young lady, I might think to myself, "damn, I'd like to see her naked!"  Well, I'm not thinking that way because I want to see her experience liberation and freedom.  It *is* sexual.  And from the Christian perspective, sex has a place, but that place *isn't* wanton licentiousness.

[eques]

Sounds like there should be a "Christian nudity" thread.

[MaineShark]

Gonna have to side with Tracy on this one.  From the Christian perspective (please don't quote Leviticus, that is Old Testament, which Christ abolished) a person's intent is more important than what they do.

Tracy referred to ancient Israel, which was under Leviticus...

Obviously, killing someone is wrong, but Jesus' point was that if you didn't hate someone, you wouldn't kill them.  So Christians are supposed to work on who they are inside, and when that inner person is changed, the outer man (what we do) will be changed.

I don't think that killing is "obviously" wrong.  But that's a different thread...

But let's be honest here ... isn't much of modern "nudism" about sex?

No.  I'd suggest doing some research before asking others to "honestly" admit that the world follows your prejudices.

Some say, "no way, it's about liberation".  OK, fine, if that's your intention, then as Paul says, "all things are lawful, provided they are done lawfully." But I tend to think that there are a large number of people for whom it is about sex.  When I see a good looking young lady, I might think to myself, "damn, I'd like to see her naked!"  Well, I'm not thinking that way because I want to see her experience liberation and freedom.  It *is* sexual.  And from the Christian perspective, sex has a place, but that place *isn't* wanton licentiousness.

Sounds like a personal problem.

And how would that related to nudism?  She's the one without the clothing, and you're the one sexualizing that.  Her intentions were not sexual so, by the standards you previously put forth, this "test" has no meaning.

Joe

[Lloyd Danforth]

Wanton Licentious  always worked for me

[MaineShark]

Wanton Licentious  always worked for me

Just watch out for dyslexia, or they'll kick you out of the restaurant...

Joe

[tracysaboe]

Gonna have to side with Tracy on this one.  From the Christian perspective (please don't quote Leviticus, that is Old Testament, which Christ abolished) a person's intent is more important than what they do.  Obviously, killing someone is wrong, but Jesus' point was that if you didn't hate someone, you wouldn't kill them.  So Christians are supposed to work on who they are inside, and when that inner person is changed, the outer man (what we do) will be changed.

How does that relate to nudity?

It's all about the person's intention.  Is nudity wrong in and of itself?  No, because it's accepted attire in Africa and the amazon forest, where the birthday suit is the only suit most know.  As far as I know, I was born naked. 

Greeks had a very tolerant view toward nudity.  Why did Paul circumcise Timothy?  Obviously there were people who saw Timothy naked ... communal baths and all.  Some of those communal baths might have even been ... mixed gender. <gasp>

Early Christians baptized naked.  Why?  Seems to me they didn't have clothes that dried out very good back then, so most water activities were done in the buff.  Would I baptize someone naked?  Sure, if that's what the custom is or was.  I don't think that's the custom here, though, and in fact that custom would offend a lot of people here.

But let's be honest here ... isn't much of modern "nudism" about sex?  Some say, "no way, it's about liberation".  OK, fine, if that's your intention, then as Paul says, "all things are lawful, provided they are done lawfully." But I tend to think that there are a large number of people for whom it is about sex.  When I see a good looking young lady, I might think to myself, "damn, I'd like to see her naked!"  Well, I'm not thinking that way because I want to see her experience liberation and freedom.  It *is* sexual.  And from the Christian perspective, sex has a place, but that place *isn't* wanton licentiousness.

Thanks Caleb, that's what I was trying to say.

I think you can synthesize naturism with Christianity. But most people in our society don't see it that way, and for the reason's noted, think it's best to remain fully clothed. Now the judgementalism about it got real extream during the Victorian era, that was just as wrong if not worse.

Tracy

[tracysaboe]

It's certainly a lot easier to not lust after a women if she's fully clothed. On the other hand -- the skanky stuff women wear sometimes is actually more enticing then simply being naked. And you can lust after somebody who's fully clothed too. Ultimately, everybody is responsible for gaurding their own thoughts.

Statistically, children brought up in social nudist environments wait until later ages than children brought up in anti-nudity environments, on average.  It's not the lack of "skanky" clothing... it's altogether healthier to respect the human body for what it is, rather than sexualizing simple nudity.  Nudity only becomes sexualized when a culture deems to do so.  Nudity has nothing to do with lust unless the participants think it does.  Someone who doesn't associate nudity with sexuality won't find it difficult "to not lust after a woman" just because she isn't dressed.  The connection from nudity to lust simply won't occur to him.

Umm. That's what I said. Why are you arguing with me? I think, you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. We've gone round and round on other issues before with your constant obstructivist type talking. I'm not going to indulge you on this one because it's simply not that important.

tracy

Tracy

[Lloyd Danforth]

Wanton Licentious  always worked for me

Just watch out for dyslexia, or they'll kick you out of the restaurant...

Joe

96

[Lloyd Danforth]

It's certainly a lot easier to not lust after a women if she's fully clothed. On the other hand -- the skanky stuff women wear sometimes is actually more enticing then simply being naked. And you can lust after somebody who's fully clothed too. Ultimately, everybody is responsible for gaurding their own thoughts.

Statistically, children brought up in social nudist environments wait until later ages than children brought up in anti-nudity environments, on average.  It's not the lack of "skanky" clothing... it's altogether healthier to respect the human body for what it is, rather than sexualizing simple nudity.  Nudity only becomes sexualized when a culture deems to do so.  Nudity has nothing to do with lust unless the participants think it does.  Someone who doesn't associate nudity with sexuality won't find it difficult "to not lust after a woman" just because she isn't dressed.  The connection from nudity to lust simply won't occur to him.

Umm. That's what I said. Why are you arguing with me? I think, you just like to argue for the sake of arguing. We've gone round and round on other issues before with your constant obstructivist type talking. I'm not going to indulge you on this one because it's simply not that important.

tracy

Tracy

Just trying to goad you into misspelling something

[KBCraig]

Why are you arguing with me?

tracy

Tracy

Just trying to goad you into misspelling something

Lloyd sets the Limbo bar at 12' to start, and works it down to 6'. Some things simply aren't much of a challenge.

[powerchuter]

I don't know why you have to be such a jerk and belittling and know-it-allish about everything. If you read what I wrote. "From a Christian (or at least the way I was brought up Christian) perspective," that means I'm not saying it's the final authority. I'm just trying to explain how many mainstream Christians think about it.

Uh, I'd suggest at this juncture that you get out a little more, if you think that was "belittling" or whatnot.

When you say "So public nudity was looked down upon in Ancient Jewish and Christian cultures more because they cared about the person and felt it was self destructive behavior to their current and future intiment relationships," you are making a statement of fact, not expressing an opinion.  Hence, "setting yourself up as the final authority."  Your statement is not borne out by the actual facts.

It's certainly a lot easier to not lust after a women if she's fully clothed. On the other hand -- the skanky stuff women wear sometimes is actually more enticing then simply being naked. And you can lust after somebody who's fully clothed too. Ultimately, everybody is responsible for gaurding their own thoughts.

Statistically, children brought up in social nudist environments wait until later ages than children brought up in anti-nudity environments, on average.  It's not the lack of "skanky" clothing... it's altogether healthier to respect the human body for what it is, rather than sexualizing simple nudity.  Nudity only becomes sexualized when a culture deems to do so.  Nudity has nothing to do with lust unless the participants think it does.  Someone who doesn't associate nudity with sexuality won't find it difficult "to not lust after a woman" just because she isn't dressed.  The connection from nudity to lust simply won't occur to him.

Regarding women being property of "husband, father, brother, etc." Many anciet cultures believed that, but ancient Israel wasn't one of them. Their's nothing in the Old testament or New that ever states that. Although I'll admit in practice many of the levitician rules designed for cleanliness did put more of a burden on women then men.

I'd go find some tidbits from Leviticus, but we're getting astray of the topic...  Still... Who is prohibited from covetting?

Joe

I'll have to go with Joe on this post and pretty much every single post he has made.  I want him and others like him on my side before, during, and after the shit hits the fan!

[Lloyd Danforth]

I'll go with anyone who keeps religion out of what started as a 'rational' discussion.  Rational people do not give a shit about anything in any of the bibles.

[eques]

And Lloyd cuts the bar down to 2'6"...