Republic of NH

[David]

Bump for Free Talk Live listeners.     Welcome.

[Mark_FTL]

socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).

I didn't entirely get the gist of this argument, but I would like to make a point.

The United States government, and any government that finances itself through debt or Income Tax, is a socialist government. Leaving aside the forced redistribution of wealth, which is certainly a hallmark of Socialism, the local and state government (empowered by the US government) own the land. Ascribing us to this sort of serfdom is simply the easiest way to generate revenue from the land without all of that messy risk. They leave that to the serfs. If they didn't, they would not be able to compel you to pay property taxes with the threat of taking your land.

The US government owns your labor, if they didn't they would be unable to compel you to pay income tax through the threat of imprisonment.

Many state governments have taxes on the assets that a business owns, so they own the capital, but that is really moot because the US govt. owns your labor and that is how you earn money with which to buy the capital. Also the IRS can demand an accounting of your assets, and such, for audit proposes. That seems to me to be the prerogatives of an owner, not an organization set up to defend liberty.

[John Edward Mercier]

Set up for Liberty, yes. Distorted by citizens based on greed and fear... most definately.
Taxation comes about by the desire of the those voting to attain undue benefits... the manner and mechanism such as to make voters feel the least pain.

[Friday]

I received an email from "Gned the Gnome" who is looking for a representative from New Hampshire to get involved in this:
http://america.freecountries.org/
http://america.freecountries.org/call-for-delegates.html

He emphasized that he is interested in working with people firmly committed to the Non-Aggression Principle, which is why I'm not just reposting his email here.  But if you're interested, let me know, and I'll forward the email to you.

[Russell Kanning]

socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).

I didn't entirely get the gist of this argument, but I would like to make a point.

you know you are quoting the ghost of bill grennon ... right?

actually I agree with him on this .... socialist don't even pretend that you own your stuph

[Caleb]

socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).

I didn't entirely get the gist of this argument, but I would like to make a point.

The United States mafia, and any mafia that finances itself through debt or Income Tax, is a socialist mafia. Leaving aside the forced redistribution of wealth, which is certainly a hallmark of Socialism, the local and state mafia (empowered by the US mafia) own the land. Ascribing us to this sort of serfdom is simply the easiest way to generate revenue from the land without all of that messy risk. They leave that to the serfs. If they didn't, they would not be able to compel you to pay property taxes with the threat of taking your land.

The US mafia owns your labor, if they didn't they would be unable to compel you to pay income tax through the threat of imprisonment.

Many state mafias have taxes on the assets that a business owns, so they own the capital, but that is really moot because the US govt. owns your labor and that is how you earn money with which to buy the capital. Also the IRS can demand an accounting of your assets, and such, for audit proposes. That seems to me to be the prerogatives of an owner, not an organization set up to defend liberty.

Gotta agree with you, property tax is a state assertion of their ownership of land. Income taxes are state assertion of ownership of your labor.  Capital gains taxes are state assertion of ownership of capital.  The US is a socialist state.

[Caleb]

Here's more fun. The communist manifesto is not communist.  In later prefaces to the communist manifesto, Engels would admit that it is really a socialist manifesto, but that he and Marx chose the communist label because at the time he didn't like the connotations associated with socialism.  Here is the 10 point action plan, word for word, presented to implement socialism:

"1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc."

It is hard to argue that the US isn't on the path to full blown Marxism.

[John Edward Mercier]

Whenever one attempt to reach an egalitarian they tend to centralize. The problem is it violates the inherent Perceived Maximum Value of individualism and is thus bound to failure the closer they come to their objective. Human creativity and innovation are so far beyond the scope of centralized management control that attempts are futile.

[J’raxis 270145]

socialism is the state ownership of the means of production (land, labor & capital).

I didn't entirely get the gist of this argument, but I would like to make a point.

The United States mafia, and any mafia that finances itself through debt or Income Tax, is a socialist mafia. Leaving aside the forced redistribution of wealth, which is certainly a hallmark of Socialism, the local and state mafia (empowered by the US mafia) own the land. Ascribing us to this sort of serfdom is simply the easiest way to generate revenue from the land without all of that messy risk. They leave that to the serfs. If they didn't, they would not be able to compel you to pay property taxes with the threat of taking your land.

The US mafia owns your labor, if they didn't they would be unable to compel you to pay income tax through the threat of imprisonment.

Many state mafias have taxes on the assets that a business owns, so they own the capital, but that is really moot because the US govt. owns your labor and that is how you earn money with which to buy the capital. Also the IRS can demand an accounting of your assets, and such, for audit proposes. That seems to me to be the prerogatives of an owner, not an organization set up to defend liberty.

Gotta agree with you, property tax is a state assertion of their ownership of land. Income taxes are state assertion of ownership of your labor.  Capital gains taxes are state assertion of ownership of capital.  The US is a socialist state.

The land ownership régime in the U.S. is older than that, deriving from feudalism:—

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title

[Caleb]

Yeah, I was actually thinking that when I posted it, I was thinking that really American government is almost fuedal - pay your tribute you damn serf!

[J’raxis 270145]

The only aspect of feudalism that really ended was hereditary debt. The industrial/factory system is really just a modernized form of the old system. Of course, the way the credit industry gets people suckered into student loans and credit cards by the time they're eighteen makes the abolition of hereditary debt sort of meaningless.

[John Edward Mercier]

No way.
The feudal system was caste based. Movement within the social structure was very limited.
In today's system, many workers are also owners through stock.
And providing someone with a tool, does not indict you to their malignant use of such.

[J’raxis 270145]

Peasants owned their land, too. Peasants who actually did free themselves from the debt cycle could become freemen, and rise in the social structure.

[John Edward Mercier]

My point was that today one could be a worker and also an owner... occupying to levels of society at the same time. Though in reality the various levels are currently only a perception of value.