Big, bad news! Liberty Dollar offices raided.

[Little Owl]

The phrase "Valued at $20" is highly misleading.  Who values it at $20?  Not the silver market, not the Associates nor RCOs.  Why not just say "Its an ounce of silver"?  (A: Because there are much more cost effective ways to buy an ounce of silver.)

[Dreepa]

You guys should ask those questions at the Liberty Forum where Bernard will be speaking.

Don't know if I'll be at the Liberty Forum this year (too few FRNs).  And I have serious doubts as to whether Bernard will attend.  But if he did, I highly doubt I would get straight answers to these questions.  Its more enlightening to watch what people do than to hear their spin on the issue.

Liberty Forum now has 'a la carte' pricing.  so that you and go to just some dinners or to certain events in the day.

[dalebert]

http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/spend-liberty-dollars/howtospend.htm

I must admit that page is pretty disturbing in that it seems to encourage taking advantage of people's ignorance about real silver values. I never bought one for face value and still would not be comfortable trying to pass one off and say it's "valued at" whatever price printed on the round. I paid a little over spot based on the weight once which at the time was more than the face value due to the increase in silver values. However, I still don't see a case for fraud on the part of Liberty Dollar.

[Dreepa]

I must admit that page is pretty disturbing in that it seems to encourage taking advantage of people's ignorance about real silver values. I never bought one for face value and still would not be comfortable trying to pass one off and say it's "valued at" whatever price printed on the round. I paid a little over spot based on the weight once which at the time was more than the face value due to the increase in silver values. However, I still don't see a case for fraud on the part of Liberty Dollar.

Someone bought a tshirt on Tuesday and paid with 2 ten dollar Liberty Dollars.  I gave them $5 FRN in return... I knew what I was getting and didn't feel 'ripped off.'

[Ruger Mason]

From Answers.com:

fraud (frôd) pronunciation
n.
   1. A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

The Liberty Dollar's website asks holders of Liberty Dollars to deceive merchants who otherwise would not accept Liberties as payment at face value.  Placing the "$20" and "USA" on the coin is deliberately deceptive.  Again, markings were put on the coin with the intent to deceive, and Liberty Dollar, Inc. encourages the deception.  If I bought a Liberty from a Liberty Associate who was following the recommendations of Liberty Dollar, Inc., I'd be told I could purchase $20 US in goods.  Yet, I'd be paying significantly more than the coin's actual value.  Lots of deception going on that secures unfair gain for LAs, RCOs and Liberty Dollar, Inc.

Liberty Dollar's entire profit model depends on this deception.  There is just no good reason to mimic the appearance of US coins, and no good reason to place a face value in dollars on the coins, unless the intent was to deceive, and profit by the deception.

[Ruger Mason]

I must admit that page is pretty disturbing in that it seems to encourage taking advantage of people's ignorance about real silver values. I never bought one for face value and still would not be comfortable trying to pass one off and say it's "valued at" whatever price printed on the round. I paid a little over spot based on the weight once which at the time was more than the face value due to the increase in silver values. However, I still don't see a case for fraud on the part of Liberty Dollar.

Someone bought a tshirt on Tuesday and paid with 2 ten dollar Liberty Dollars.  I gave them $5 FRN in return... I knew what I was getting and didn't feel 'ripped off.'

You're missing the point -- you are familiar with Liberty Dollar and know exactly what the coins are really worth.  Liberty Dollar's "how to" page didn't describe how to deal with people who were knowledgeable about the Liberty Dollar, it described how to mislead those who didn't know what it was and had no idea of its true value.  If the Liberty Dollar had a different design, didn't say "USA" on it, and didn't have a fictional face value on it, I wouldn't be concerned.

[Dreepa]

i was originally against the LD... but everyone I have seen dealing with LD.. is very upfront.. and no one I know seems to be making lots of $$ off of the LD.  Seems to be more for educational purposes.

[Kat Kanning]

I got paid 2 liberty dollars for something that cost me $40 (russell accepted payment for me) and I didn't feel like I got a fair deal    $30 bucks worth of silver for something I shelled out $40 for.

[Ruger Mason]

i was originally against the LD... but everyone I have seen dealing with LD.. is very upfront.. and no one I know seems to be making lots of $$ off of the LD.

Then you are going against Liberty Dollar's own guidelines.  I believe the only individuals making meaningful money from the scheme are von Nothaus, his close associates, his employees and vendors.  Those interested in commodity money as an educational tool probably should find a less tainted means.  In recent days, I've learned there are many companies out there that manufacture .999 silver 1 oz tokens that can be used in barter.

[Russell Kanning]

I usually use LD as ounces of silver.
I also figure since Von Nothaus has been making money on these coins .... he can sue the government with his own money and mount his own defense. He is in it to make money. So I see no need to donate to his current lawyer fees.

[J’raxis 270145]

U.S. currency doesn't even say "USA" on it.

[dalebert]

he can sue the government with his own money and mount his own defense.

Actually, that was one of the first reasons I was given for the

INSANELY HIGH

mark-up on the coins, so yes, I suggest we let him pay for his own defense. I will wish him good luck because I don't think he's broken any laws.
Yes his product is way over-priced, but I really don't see a difference between that and these TV commercials where they promise "Buy within the next 15 minutes and receive this hoojamagidget valued at $9.99 ABSOLUTELY FREE!" Yeah, uhm, "valued at" by who? *shrug*

[Dreepa]

I got paid 2 liberty dollars for something that cost me $40 (russell accepted payment for me) and I didn't feel like I got a fair deal    $30 bucks worth of silver for something I shelled out $40 for.

You should be mad at Russell then  ....not the person who paid.

[Lloyd Danforth]

Just remembering it caused her to smack him on the head

[Dreepa]

Just remembering it caused her to smack him on the head

Nice.

Russell can I pay YOU for my raffle ticket in Liberty Dollars?