Big, bad news! Liberty Dollar offices raided.

[coffeeseven]

Bernard is still running the radio spots at FTL saying use and get the LD and to go to the LD org website. Nothing new on the website though. Anyone heard anything or is this posturing?

[Little Owl]

C'mon people.  The only reason these coins are selling above face value is because they've been seized.  Don't pretend its an inherent characteristic of the marketing model.  (In a way, I suppose it is, since the marketing model inevitably leads to getting busted.)

As I said before, if they're commanding more than face value on eBay, hurry up and unload them.  It might not last.

[Little Owl]

Is this piece of bullion:

Here we go again with mvpel's gratuitous "spot price" speech.  Save it, dude.  You're beating more dead horses than a Parisian steakhouse.

[Ruger Mason]

The willful self-delusion and creative rationalization on display here is truly breathtaking.  I can think of no better example of Orwell's "doublethink."  Seriously.  I give up. 

[error]

The aversion some people here seem to have toward making a profit is astounding.

[mvpel]

Here we go again with mvpel's gratuitous "spot price" speech.  Save it, dude.  You're beating more dead horses than a Parisian steakhouse.

If it were a dead horse, you'd think I wouldn't still be hearing people talk about $15 an ounce as "the price" or "the value."

[PattyLee loves dogs]

As I said before, if they're commanding more than face value on eBay, hurry up and unload them.  It might not last.

+1... the price will stay up only as long as the company stays in the news. Of course, if they can maneuver the BATF into burning them to death on national TV, then the price might hold for a little while...

[Little Owl]

The aversion some people here seem to have toward making a profit is astounding

There are many ways to make a profit.  What you're hearing is an aversion to making a profit through misrepresentation.  Apparently the FBI has a similar view.

[Ron Helwig]

C'mon people.  The only reason these coins are selling above face value is because they've been seized.
...
As I said before, if they're commanding more than face value on eBay, hurry up and unload them.  It might not last.

While the seemingly "insanely high" prices they are getting is probably mostly due to the seizure, lots of people were paying way more than face for Liberty Dollars years before the seizure.

I never got into the numismatic aspect of the Liberty Dollar, but there are several variations that are highly prized. The "godless" Liberty Dollar fetches a high premium, as it is the only one where the "Trust in God" phrase doesn't appear. Don't forget that the early years saw fewer rounds being minted, so their rarity increases their value. The early mintings also got significant portions of their run reminted, making them even more rare.

Charles Hampe can relate more info, as he did get into the numismatic stuff.

[mvpel]

"But... But... it's only $15 worth of silver!!"

[Ron Helwig]

The willful self-delusion and creative rationalization on display here is truly breathtaking.

Yes, it is. I find it very disappointing that normally rational seeming people still don't understand 'caveat emptor' - that it isn't the seller's duty to ensure that the buyer isn't a moron.

As someone who is in the business of selling 'overpriced barley pop', Ruger should understand this. He doesn't insist that his servers inform each and every customer that they can get the same beer cheaper at the corner grocery store.

http://nhlibertydollar.com/blog/2007/sep/silver_money_why_bother_liberty_dollar

There are a few problems with trying to use generic silver as money, but the most fundamental problem is that there is no reason for most people to prefer them to FRNs in common transactions.  The Liberty Dollar solves this problem by minting a form of silver that some people recognize as possessing value beyond its commodity value.  This extra value is its value as money, and the spread between the commodity value and the monetary value provides the necessary profit incentive for users to spend it into circulation.

Until and unless there is a reason to prefer silver over FRNs, people won't use silver. You can ignore Gresham's law all you want; but just like gravity, it won't ignore you.

[Little Owl]

Has either of you (mvpel or Ron Helwig) actually read the affidavit?  From the points you're making, it doesn't sound like it.  Many of the points made in the affidavit sound reasonable and you haven't addressed them.

[Ron Helwig]

Has either of you (mvpel or Ron Helwig) actually read the affidavit?  From the points you're making, it doesn't sound like it.  Many of the points made in the affidavit sound reasonable and you haven't addressed them.

Yes I have read it. The points made in it are laughable on their face, more so if you accept Austrian economics.

If there is anything even close to a fair trial, the Liberty Dollar will be quickly vindicated.

[Ruger Mason]

I find it very disappointing that normally rational seeming people still don't understand 'caveat emptor' - that it isn't the seller's duty to ensure that the buyer isn't a moron.

Caveat emptor always applies, but it doesn't justify fraud.  A fraudulent seller is still liable, ethically if not legally.

As someone who is in the business of selling 'overpriced barley pop', Ruger should understand this. He doesn't insist that his servers inform each and every customer that they can get the same beer cheaper at the corner grocery store.

That's not an accurate analogy of this situation.  There is nothing inherently unethical about exploiting customer ignorance of the market, which is unavoidable anyway.  That's not what Liberty Dollar tries to do.  Rather, they are perpetrating deliberate fraud by lying to the customer; telling them the coin is one thing, when it is in fact another thing.  A closer analogy would be if I was selling Budweiser but labeling it Harp and charging the price for a Harp.  That would be fraud, since I'm lying to the customer about what kind of beer it is and profiting from it.  But that's exactly what Liberty Dollar does.  They label a coin that by most standards is worth about $15 US with a marker indicating that it is worth $20, and verbal assurance that the marker is accurate.  But it is a lie.  As someone who knows beer a bit, if I ordered and paid for a Harp, but got a Budweiser instead, I'd be upset and feel like I was ripped off.  But there are beer drinkers out there who perhaps wouldn't recognize the difference.  Would that still be fraud?  According to Liberty Dollar, it wouldn't be.

mvpel: Regarding the "price" of silver.  Maybe a 1 oz silver Liberty is worth $20 to you.  Maybe it is worth $1 million to you.  Maybe its only worth $1 to me.  Prices are subjective and all that.  Its all besides the point, and valid only when the buyer of the coin has at least a basic understanding of the coin's nature (as you and other users of the coin generally do).  But why lie to the receiver of a coin about its nature then?

Until and unless there is a reason to prefer silver over FRNs, people won't use silver. You can ignore Gresham's law all you want; but just like gravity, it won't ignore you.

So in the mean time, lie to them.  Good plan.

[penguins4me]

Here we go again with mvpel's gratuitous "spot price" speech.  Save it, dude.  You're beating more dead horses than a Parisian steakhouse.

If it were a dead horse, you'd think I wouldn't still be hearing people talk about $15 an ounce as "the price" or "the value."

The spot price is "the value" to some people. There are many coins with a price tag I wouldn't considered justified by their content or looks, but that does not hold for all others in the marketplace.

The fact of the matter is, the market seems to deal with this nicely already: those who want hunks of silver will buy the cheapest hunks they can find offered for sale, whereas those who want something pretty or specific will pay a premium.