Has Stefan Molyneux hooked you?

[Russell Kanning]

I wasn't impressed by his overwrought strawman argument against Ron Paul. 

I haven't listened to his stuff, but I don't understand why anyone would spend time arguing against Ron Paul. He sure isn't a big problem.

[Russell Kanning]

The podcast Lex cited in particular was the one that put me off.  He basically says "Yes self defense is valid, but no I'd never defend myself."   To me any one who wouldn't defend themselves is not someone who values themselves enough for me to value their opinion.  It also seems he doesn't really value self defense. Connotatively he seems willing to accept it 'for the sake of argument.'  He seems to be a pacifist, which, to me is a crippling and bankrupt philosophy, but having grown up with it I am extra cynical about it.

Sounds like I would agree with him on loads of stuff.

[Russell Kanning]

I share your cynicism about totally pacifistic philosophies, too.  I think they tend to be very self-hating at a base level, and I wouldn't subscribe to a philosophy that denied self-defense as a moral option.

No pacifists I know hate themselves. In fact most of us are really full of ourselves ... ask around.

[Eli]

Most of the Pacifists I've known where church pacifists.  Loved Jesus more than themselves and where horribly burdened by "I'm white and middle class and therefore evil" guilt.  I could appreciate their passion and courage, but not their unwillingness to defend themselves.  I find that embrace of death disturbing.  I've never had the faith to embrace the philosophy.

[Eli]

I wasn't impressed by his overwrought strawman argument against Ron Paul.

I haven't listened to his stuff, but I don't understand why anyone would spend time arguing against Ron Paul. He sure isn't a big problem.

Me neither.  Never should have taken the bait.  All that arguing really took energy from both sides.  In the end no ones position changed an inch. 

[Russell Kanning]

why would restraining from hurting people .... even in defense .... be "embracing death"?

How many pacifists have you seen murdered?

[KJM]

why would restraining from hurting people .... even in defense .... be "embracing death"?

How many pacifists have you seen murdered?

I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure some of the holocaust victims were pacifists.  Of course I can only speculate as to whether it would have made any difference for them had they not been so.

[dalebert]

Being a pacifist doesn't mean you can't take measures to keep yourself safe or avoid danger. There are lots of smart things the average person can do to avoid and/or reduce harm to themselves and their property short of violent defense. I think it's a bit of a leap to say that they're "embracing death".

I'm not a pacifist by the way. I have no moral reservations about blowing a hole through someone who's trying to kill me. On the other hand, I can't say with great confidence that I'll have it in me if and when the time comes, particularly if I have very little time to decide. I hope I never find out.

[Bald Eagle]

why would restraining from hurting people .... even in defense .... be "embracing death"?

How many pacifists have you seen murdered?

I don't know - how many people get murdered every year because they don't believe in carrying guns or learning about self-defense?

How many people have been murdered by governments around the world because there were too many pacifists who couldn't stomach a violent revolution?

We could all just take seats in a stadium - hundreds of thousands of us - chanting Kumbaya while one single solitary psychopath raped and tortured and killed his way through the whole lot.  Because it would be wrong to stop him if force was involved.  Allowing hundreds of thousands of people to die in horrible ways is moral compared to possibly causing injury to ONE sicko.  Is that the moral, ethical, and philosophical basis of pacifism?  If it's not, and I'm sorely mistaken, then please explain how it's not, because I'm mystified.

"Don't worry Mr. Psycho - I'll just save you the trouble and mess and just kill myself."


Violence is never the answer - unless someone is trying to kill you and you don't have any other options.

Or you're Jesus Christ driving the money changers out of the Temple.


Did you do a lot of acid while you were in Kalifornia?
I LOVE you Russell, but you give me such a big damned headache.

[MaineShark]

The podcast Lex cited in particular was the one that put me off.  He basically says "Yes self defense is valid, but no I'd never defend myself."   To me any one who wouldn't defend themselves is not someone who values themselves enough for me to value their opinion.  It also seems he doesn't really value self defense. Connotatively he seems willing to accept it 'for the sake of argument.'  He seems to be a pacifist, which, to me is a crippling and bankrupt philosophy, but having grown up with it I am extra cynical about it.

Indeed.  Not just valuing oneself, but valuing others, as well.  I'm under no moral obligation to defend others, but I sure have an aesthetic obligation that relates to me being able to look at myself in the mirror without cringing, which requires me to defend myself since it means also defending any future victims of that bad guy.  And to take reasonable steps to defend others, if I know they need it.

"Don't worry Mr. Psycho - I'll just save you the trouble and mess and just kill myself."

How dare you interfere with Mr. Psyho's fun.  How can he torture and rape you, if you kill yourself before he gets to you?  You have a duty to remain alive so that he can fully enjoy murdering you!

Joe

[Eli]

And a perfectly self interested one.  If I value the people around me I will defend them purely out of self interest.

Merry christmas folks.

[MaineShark]

And a perfectly self interested one.  If I value the people around me I will defend them purely out of self interest.

Merry christmas folks.

Indeed.  There's no moral obligation, but it's pretty silly to let evil folks run around loose, when you could easily stop them - they're likely to victimize you at some point, too.

Joe

[Barterer]

After listening to 14~15 Molyneux podcasts, I must say they are very good, and I find them comforting in a Harry Browne sort of way.  Has he covered the subject of the Free State Project?  If so, I'd listen to that podcast next.  Otherwise I'll continue in a semi-chronological order.

[EJinCT]

How many here, who claim to be pacifists, would idly allow some innocent to be raped, tortured, murdered, etc?

Do me the favor and post, so I can save my time and ammo for defending someone, who would appreciate the assistance, if such should threaten them or their loved ones.

I sure wouldn't want to infringe on their freedom to suffer.


IMHO, pacifists are extremely selfish people.

[Kat Kanning]

You can keep your distance from me.