Recreational drugs FAR less likely to kill than prescribed drugs!

[Caleb]

I tell you what, I'll participate as well. I will take an anti-arthritic homeopathic concoction, dilute it to three times the recommended dosage (to make it more powerful  ) and see how it does for 30 days.

I am skeptical of doctors in the extreme. It took them five years to properly diagnose my arthritis. I have encountered more quacks with MD diplomas on the wall than I care to remember. But I don't have much respect for the alternative health community either, and frankly the ideas of homeopathy have always seemed so laughable that I never bothered to even attempt homeopathic remedies. This double study should establish homeopathy's efficacy or lack thereof.

[NJLiberty]

Hew Dylboz, I have a challenge for you:[/b]  You're so sure that homeopathy is ineffective, are you?  Let's try a scientific experiment.  Homeopathic theory says that the medicine that cures a symptom in a sick person will cause the symptom in a healthy person.  You deny this, correct?  You should also know that according to homeopathic theory, the more dilute the medicine, the more powerful it is.  You deny this as well, correct?  So let's get some very dilute homeopathic medicine.  Maybe something used to treat skin disorders.  You'll take one dose a day, and then after three months of this you'll come down to Murphy's Tap Room to show us how it's had no effect on you and I'll be publicly humiliated.  Wouldn't that be fun?  And as you claim, harmless.  What do you say?

If you all want another test subject I'm game, though I have to tell you I'm not interested in humiliating either one of you. Let me know.

George

[Dylboz]

I started a new blog just for the effort. No posts yet, but the address is:

http://homeopathy-is-quackery.blogspot.com/

Keep coming back for updates!

PS - Thanks for the karma dings, Mr. Homeopathy! I'll refrain from returning the favor(s).

[dalebert]

When I think of alternative medicines, I think of things like using plants in their raw forms and things like that. It makes sense to be open-minded about it because that's how we derived a lot of modern medicines. Homeopathy, on the other hand, is so completely moronic and nonsensical that it ought to be dismissed out of hand. The degree of dilution that it calls for is so absurd that it actually becomes massively unlikely that even one molecule of the notorious substance remains. In other words- pure placebo effect.

[NJLiberty]

I agree. I have trouble believing that any positive effect could come from diluting an active ingredient so much that it is virtually non-existent in the dose. From what I understand, the claim is that even if the last molecule of active ingredient were diluted out, that its essence still stays in the water. Doesn't sound feasible to me, but who knows.

George

[mackler]

I was driving down the Tri-State Highway outside of Chicago, Illinois in my brand new Corvette enjoying a beautiful sunny day.  Suddenly I felt an enormous ripping pain in my chest. I could barely breathe; the pain was excruciating.  I immediately pulled off to the side of the road.  My life virtually flashed before my eyes and I thought, "Oh my god I'm having a heart attack and I'm only twenty-one years Old!"

Just as quickly as the pain came, it vanished.  I was dizzy, disoriented, and in a state of shock and disbelief as to what had just happened.  I looked down and noticed my new car phone, and invention that had just come out in the Chicagoland area.  I picked up my phone, called my secretary, and said "I think I just had a heart attack."

Luckily for me, within a few moments I felt fine.  I concluded that if it was a heart attack, it certainly didn't cause any major damage.  But something was obviously wrong.

Over the next week I was examined by three of the top heart specialists in America.  Through use of the most advanced medical diagnostic devices, it was concluded after days of testing that I had been born with a deformed heart, a severe mitral valve prolapse which would cause me major medical problems the rest of my life.  The was no cure.

These top medical minds recommended experimental drugs or risky surgery, both of which I was told had little promise.  My life expectancy was to be very short.  I struggled with coming up with an effective plan of action that could solve my medical dilemma.  I was twenty-one years old and had my whole life in front of me.  I had to do something!

Months earlier I had attended a lecture where I heard about a Harvard medical doctor named Yiwen Y. Tang, founder of the Century Clinic in Reno, Nevada, who, during the Korean War, was a MASH surgeon. (Today the clinic is called Sierra Integrative Medical Center,)  This MD had decided that standard medical procedures, drugs, and surgery were not the best way to cure and prevent diseases.He instead was using a diagnostic device developed in Germany by a Dr. Reinhold Voll called the Dermatron machine.  Allegedly, in a matter of minutes, it could diagnose medical problems in the body.  When the diagnosis was complete, homeopathic remedies were given to correct the imbalances and reverse and cure the disease.

At the time it sounded like hocus-pocus.  The words homeostatis, holistic healing, homeopathic remedies, acupuncture meridians, energy frequencies, imbalances, and the like were used in the lecture, replacing what was, to me, the standard vernacular of germs, bacteria, viruses, drugs, surgery, and genetics.  Skeptical, yet open to new ideas, I flew to Reno, Nevada, to meet this great Dr. Tang.  What did I have to lose?

Upon my arrival, the doctor asked me why I was there.  I looked fit and healthy, and being so young, he was slightly puzzled by my desire for diagnosis.  Most of his patients were old and had severe medical problems.  Wanting to see if this Dermatron machine was legitimate, I simply said, "I feel great.  I just want a basic checkup."

Immediately he tested me with his magic machine.  Within two minutes he had touched my heart meridian with the probe and the machine registered very low energy.   The doctor looked at me, slightly concerned, and said, "Son you have a heart problem."  I was shocked at how quickly the diagnosis came.  Just as quickly he stated, "Let me find out where it is."

He began to touch other meridian points.   When he got to the mitral valve, the machine again registered very little energy.  He looked at me and said matter-of-factly, "You have a mitral valve prolapse."

Needless to say, I was quite impressed.  The expert medical doctors took days of diagnostic testing to determine that I had a severe mitral vave prolapse.  This "energy machine" diagnosed the problem within minutes.  I looked at the doctor and said, "Yes I know, and I understand it is incurable."  His response startled me.  "Yes, in American it's incurable, but there are natural treatments in other countries that can reverse this problem in a matter of weeks.  Unfortunately the FDA has not approved these treatments.  So, yes, in America it is incurable."  He then went on to explain a procedure of live cell injections--available in Switzerland or Mexico but not accessible via legal treatment in the United States--that would correct the problem by actually rebuilding the heart, ensuring that it would never return.

Quite frankly, I couldn't believe my ears.  Natural treatments that work that are not approved by the FDA? Impossible!

This event happened over twenty years ago.  The treatment I received was inexpensive, all-natural, painless, quick, and it worked!  And still to this day, that therapy is illegal in America.  The most amazing part of this story is, after I received the natural treatment that was forbidden in American, I went back to the medical doctors who originally diagnosed my heart problem and asked to be tested again.  My request was met with indignation. I was told that being tested again was a waste of time and money because it was impossible for the medical condition to change in two months.  Nevertheless, I demanded a readministering of all the tests anyway.  The doctors humored me and were stunned when they found I no longer had a mitral valve prolapse.

I was so excited to share with them information about the treatment I had received which had cured my problem.  Certainly these doctors would want to know about an all-natural medical treatment that could cure the incurable!  Imagine my shock when I was told that the treatment I received could not have cured my disease but, rather, I must have been misdiagnosed in the first place and never had the heart deformity to begin with.  I could not believe my ears!  These medical doctors would not accept the facts.  I had a sever mitral valve prolaspe--the pictures confirmed it; and now I do not have a mitral valve prolapse--the pictures confirm it.

I began to think of all the people that would come to these medical doctors and be told the bold-faced lie that their medical condition was incurable and could only be treated with drugs and surgery.  I sickened me to know that the truth about natural cures would be hidden from millions of patients.  The knowledge that the established medical community would deny the existence of natural cures, thus allowing millions of people to suffer and in many cases die, enraged me.

From Natural Cures "They" Don't Want You to Know About by Kevin Trudeau.

[mackler]

Hew Dylboz, I have a challenge for you:  You're so sure that homeopathy is ineffective, are you?  Let's try a scientific experiment.  Homeopathic theory says that the medicine that cures a symptom in a sick person will cause the symptom in a healthy person.  You deny this, correct?  You should also know that according to homeopathic theory, the more dilute the medicine, the more powerful it is.  You deny this as well, correct?  So let's get some very dilute homeopathic medicine.  Maybe something used to treat skin disorders.  You'll take one dose a day, and then after three months of this you'll come down to Murphy's Tap Room to show us how it's had no effect on you and I'll be publicly humiliated.  Wouldn't that be fun?  And as you claim, harmless.  What do you say?

Deal! I'm not afraid of water. But I don't live in NH. I'll take pictures, report it here and post pics. If I don't get sick, will you drop your silly homeopathy? I absolutely would love to show you this, like in person. I'll do it everyday at the same time. Hopefully, that will be adequate to your standards, it's the best I can do (now I really wish I lived in NH!).

While I appreciate your willingness to cooperate, I have to be honest that unless I see you taking the medicine I'll be dubious if you report no effects.

However, if taking your word for it is the best we can do, it's the best we can do.  It also sounds like we have a couple other volunteers, so we can have a little non-random sample.  Here's my proposal.

Sulphur 200C.  You can get it here at Amazon, or possibly at a local pharmacy or supplement store.  FYI, 200C means that it's been diluted at a ratio of 1:200, one hundred times.

If you're worried that might be too strong, you can go for the 1M strength.  It's been diluted 1:1000, one hundred times.

The directions say 5 pellets three times a day, but I'll be satisfied with three pellets once per day.  Or if you're cheap, even one pellet a day.  My challenge is that you can get through three months of this.  If you're doing three pellets a day, that will be about three of these containers.  One a day would be about one container.

Take the dose at least half-an-hour away from any meal.  Keep in mind that some substances may antidote homeopathic remedies, so if you want to stay honest, you'll avoid these.  Primarily coffee, strong mints, camphor (eucalyptus like Vick's vapo-rub).  I understand that if you're a daily coffee drinker you're probably not going to give it up for three months just for this experiment.  If so, well, then that's the best we can do.  Different homeopaths have different opinions on the effect these substances have, but this page is generally representative of common opinion.

I'm just telling you this, since you're taking the time to make a website about this experiment, presumably you're doing this for the benefit of people beyond this forum.  I can tell you that the first question that homeopathic supporters will ask if you report no effects will be whether you were exposing yourself to some antidoting substance.  If you explain that you were not, you will be that much more convincing.

Have fun, and keep me updated!


BTW Caleb, I appreciate your willingness to participate in this experiment, but sincerely, if you have arthritis, instead of trying to do something bad to yourself with the wrong remedy, why don't you see a qualified homeopath and take the correct remedy?  If you want to PM me and tell me where you live, I'll see if I can refer you to someone in your area.  That would be a more appropriate test of effectiveness, and less risky for you.


PS I haven't dinged your karma, Dylboz.  The only person whose karma I ding is Luke S, because he actually has harmed other people.  You don't lose karma in my book for disagreeing with me.

[John Edward Mercier]

Wouldn't the 1M have a stronger effect than the 200C according to the dilution hypothesis?

[J’raxis 270145]

As for the alternatives, homeopathy is absurd, non-scientific and utterly useless. It has been discredited over and over and over again. But, since it's just essentially drinking water, it's not overtly harmful, unless substituted for real medicine. Imagining that 1 part per billion of some "opposite" chemical can stimulate resistance to disease is plain stupid. It is exactly as effective as the placebo in every study it's been used in.

I do not understand how someone who rejects modern Western medicines can possibly believe in homeopathy. It is modern Western medicine: It was invented in the late eighteenth century by a scientist using scientific methods. And it has since been discredited, by other scientists using scientific methods. Accepting homeopathy means accepting the premises of modern Western medicine, but only applying them arbitrarily.

[J’raxis 270145]

Mackler quote

To be honest, I'm surprised my POV isn't more prevalent in libertarian communities.

Yeah, this has surprised me as well as Big Gov and "Big Medicine" are one in the same. It is quite hypocritical, to say the least, when a large number of folks here in this forum support this quackery called "modern medicine" aka allopathic medicine.

You continue to ignore the fact that the supporters of modern medicine on this forum agree with the position that "big government" and "big medicine" is a problem—the problem, in fact. What we don't do is conclude from that that the underlying science itself is illegitimate. This is only "hypocritical" in your mind because you're willfully refusing to understand the arguments we're making.

[mackler]

Wouldn't the 1M have a stronger effect than the 200C according to the dilution hypothesis?

shhhh!  let him take it.

[mackler]

As for the alternatives, homeopathy is absurd, non-scientific and utterly useless. It has been discredited over and over and over again. But, since it's just essentially drinking water, it's not overtly harmful, unless substituted for real medicine. Imagining that 1 part per billion of some "opposite" chemical can stimulate resistance to disease is plain stupid. It is exactly as effective as the placebo in every study it's been used in.

I do not understanding how someone who rejects modern Western medicines can possibly believe in homeopathy. It is modern Western medicine: It was invented in the late eighteenth century by a scientist using scientific methods. And it has since been discredited, by other scientists using scientific methods. Accepting homeopathy means accepting the premises of modern Western medicine, but only applying them arbitrarily.

I don't know who you're directing that to.  I have never classified modalities by whether they're "western" or not.  Homeopathy is not allopathy, and allopathy is not homeopathy.  Accepting one does not necessitate accepting or rejecting the other.

And I don't know what you mean by "discredit."  Science doesn't discredit, it disproves, and homeopathy has never been disproven in a scientifically valid manner.

[J’raxis 270145]

... homeopathy has never been disproven in a scientifically valid manner.

It doesn't have to be. Those who assert homeopathy is true have the burden of proof placed upon them. And an awful lot of studies have been done; here's a nice summary:—

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Medical_and_scientific_analysis

[mackler]

... homeopathy has never been disproven in a scientifically valid manner.

It doesn't have to be. Those who assert homeopathy is true have the burden of proof placed upon them. And an awful lot of studies have been done; here's a nice summary:—

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy#Medical_and_scientific_analysis

The excerpt you link to says nothing except what others on this thread have said: "Homeopathy doesn't work because I cannot understand how it would be possible."  This is not science.  Science does not discount observations because the current theory doesn't predict them.  Science discards theories when they don't predict observations, and the theory that homeopathy doesn't work fails to explain the numerous studies where homeopathy has been shown to be effective (unsurprisingly not mentioned in the wikipedia article).  Detractors simply dismiss those studies, saying it's a placebo effect.  Okay, fine.  Anyone who thinks it's placebo can prove me wrong by taking my challenge: take sulphur 200C for 90 days and then come tell me it's a placebo.

And I'll repeat what I said before, wikipedia is anything but a reliable source of information on any controversial issue.  The articles say whatever the person with the most spare time wants them to say.

[kola]

Mackler,

Why even bother with Jraxi? If he had it is way the pharm companies wouldnt have to even "attempt to "test" their products for safety and side effcts. They could just claim his ridiculous  assinine "theory of "innocent until proven guilty."
LOL!