Copwatch Invited for Ride-Along - Got Questions for a Keene Police Lt.?

[kola]

heres one I dislike.

The sobriety test (in the field).

It is practically impossible to pass.

Kola

[Shane Maxfield]

heres one I dislike.

The sobriety test (in the field).

It is practically impossible to pass.

Kola

Actually, lots of people pass them.  You should research some of the tests online and try them out in your driveway, they're actually not that difficult.

[Jacobus]

I fear the police, though I break no major laws.  The few interactions I have had, in any context, were filled with anxiety.  I feel completely powerless and horrible for some time after.

I've tried smiling and being as nice as possible.  I've tried looking straight ahead and saying as little as possible.  Either way I stammer my words and feel humiliated.

Do you have any practices you would recommend for me to do on my next encounter?

I'm really sorry you feel that way...you near Keene?  As for your next encounter, I'm not sure what you could do...the situation is almost doomed to be uptight, since the officer is probably somewhat rigid or stuffy, you're nervous, he can tell your nervous and is wondering why??  I, actually, would suggest that at the conclusion of whatever the next encounter is, you ask the officer if he has a minute or two to talk to you.  Then, ask him/her.  Hopefully they will take the time, and perhaps they'll relax a bit and you can see that they're human too.  Try that.

I live in Massachusetts right now.  I've had three encounters with NH police: 2 when I lived in West Lebanon (both for not having a safety inspection sticker) and 1 when on vacation in the Whites (victim of a speed trap).  I'll be moving to the Mason / Greenville area most likely once (if?) my present condo sells.

Your advice actually sounds pretty good.  I might try it if I can remain present enough during the next encounter.

I understand that to the police, encounters with folk are a daily experience and are routine.  I ask here only that you reflect on the power these encounters can have on ordinary folk and the way your procedures (and in interactions with police from CT, MA, RI, and NH, they were all pretty much the same) are designed to put you in total control of the situation.

When I was young, I thought my dad was the most powerful man alive.  I don't mean power as in control over others, but power as in always knowing what to do and handling himself with dignity.  I'm sure many boys feel the same way, like their Dad just has superpowers of protection and knowing what to do.

That illusion was burst during an interaction with the police.  It was not a remarkable interaction, but clearly here Dad did not have the control or ability to direct the situation.  He was as powerless as I was.  

In a few years I will be in the same position as my Dad was.  I guess its inevitable that the Dad-as-superman illusion be burst, but I'd rather have it be when my son beats me at chess or something.  Watching my Dad being humiliated in front of me at that time was like ... the closest analogy I can think of is stumbling upon pornography when you are too young.  

Thanks for your time on this thread and in reading my posts.

[Caleb]

I think that your approach to the officer makes a big difference to how he handles himself. One of my encounters with the keene police started to go poorly, and then I decided to change the whole dynamics and it went a lot different. I had just moved to keene and was pulled over, for what I can't remember but I was a little on edge because I didn't know what to expect, and I thought that the officer also seemed very on edge, it was probably both of us feeding off of that and mirroring each other's attitudes and amplifying it. He asked me to procure my registration, and when I reached into my glove compartment, he flashed his gigantic flashlight into my eyes. I decided it had to change.

So I raised my hands into the air so he could see them and simply spoke honestly to him. I said, "You are making me feel very nervous. I don't know what's going on here, but there are two of you and only one of me. I feel like I'm being set up here, or something. I'm just a guy trying to go home. It's dark, and you are flashing a very bright light in my eyes so that I can't even see you. You also have a loaded weapon and I do not, which makes for an extreme difference in the power dynamic here. Can you understand why I feel nervous?" I wasn't yelling, just speaking honestly. And it seemed to change his whole approach. He took the light out of my eyes, and kneeled down so that we were at eye level and apologized to me. Then he said that it's standard procedure for them to use their lights whenever anyone reaches for something, because they do not know whether any person has a firearm. I told him that I could understand his apprehension, but that I do not have a firearm, that I'm not a violent person, and that I was only "reaching" because he had specifically asked me to procure my registration, which is in my glovebox. He then let me get the registration without the bright light, and told me, "alright, I'm going to run this real quick and if everything checks out I'll get you outta here as quick as I can." He came back a minute or two later and handed me my license and registration without even a warning.

[Shane Maxfield]

Quote from: Shane Maxfield on Today at 01:28 AM
...apparently everyone thinks it's my natural lust to immediately take them behind Wal Mart and beat the crap out of them with my stick (OK, not everyone, to be fair).  That's no more realistic than CW being able to provide the riders for each cop, 24 / 7 / 365.  

...I think it would be nearly impossible for us to get away with the ole' "take him behind Sears and wail the tar out of 'im" thing.  No one around here thinks it is worth their careers to try that.

...Come on out and say hi, not just "Hi, we're with CopWatch and we're filming you, you goon, because we know you want to break that citizen's legs for having a tail light out."  I paraphrase, of course.

The thing that IS truly irritating is the constant drumbeat that if you guys aren't always right there, scrutinizing us on camera, that we're immediately going to do something horrible to a random citizen behind Wal Mart.  Or, if there's only one of you you'd better watch out because you're gonna get beat / sprayed / shot.  Give me a break.
I'm not satisfied with some of your answers. The one quoted above, for example, misrepresents what I think and what a number of people think. So you've essentially answered a question that wasn't asked, making it look like the people asking are the bad guys.

Mike, if that's not what you think, then great, however I'm just summing up the sentiment of some posters on this board, throwing out "bombs" that get a pass most of the time from the rest of this community.  For example, just taking a minute to browse around finds:

"at the very least it will cut down on Police brutality for the lucky drivers to be pulled over when Copwatch is around!"

"I don't know what will happen if I whip out my camera while they're trying to talk to me."

"Treat them like the wild deadly animals that they are. You do not want to get them riled up. Be calming and even use certain words as you speak to them; " it is ok officer, please take it easy, I only want your name a badge number, sir"  or "I do not mean you any harm Officer, what was your name?.. i only want to know the specific law regarding using the electrical outlet". and " I am non-violent, sir".

When copwatching you are putting yourself in a very dangerous situation. You need to know how to handle yourself as you could easily get your ass kicked and even killed. If at all possible never copwatch alone."

"On the other hand, you say treat them for what they are, and if I can get out of the area of armed thugs without getting hurt, even if it involves nodding, agreeing, and apologizing, I tend to do it, but feel like a pussy after."

and of course:

"Remember, cops lie. Cops believe they are above the laws and they really are. They will do as they please as long as they do not have to be accountable and are not being filmed or audioed.

Especially when you are alone they will do whatever they want with you and will have their partner backing them. So your lone story against 2 goons is useless. They may handcuff you and take you somewhere and beat the living shit out of you. I am not kidding and I experienced this some 20 years ago. I told 2 cops that they were corrupt (which they were) and that was the way they handled me. Their report stated I got was injured after stumbling inot the jailhouse."

"Your job should be focused on documenting notes in detail and getting good observation.. and make sure you are at a comfortable distance away from the nazis police. Your only conversation with a oinker cop is to ask them their names and serial numbers and tell them "I have a LAWFUL right to observe". "

No, I don't think everyone asking questions are "bad guys."  In fact, after I initially posted, I would say everyone has at least been courteous.  But just browse around this board and you'll find all sorts of blanket statements and outright bombs, with few rebuttals.  Perhaps you should hold your peers to the same "blanket statement" standards you're sticking on me?

[Caleb]

No, I don't think everyone asking questions are "bad guys."  In fact, after I initially posted, I would say everyone has at least been courteous.  But just browse around this board and you'll find all sorts of blanket statements and outright bombs, with few rebuttals.  Perhaps you should hold your peers to the same "blanket statement" standards you're sticking on me?

I apologize if this isn't done. Believe it or not, there have been meetings held where certain people made the point that you are making, that we need to "shout down" our own, although it was in reference to anyone making violent threats, because that's obviously a more dangerous situation than name-calling.

I'm not trying to make an excuse, but the bullshit factor on this forum gets pretty high, and if we all went calling everyone on all their bullshit, that's all that would get done.

[Shane Maxfield]

I think that your approach to the officer makes a big difference to how he handles himself. One of my encounters with the keene police started to go poorly, and then I decided to change the whole dynamics and it went a lot different. I had just moved to keene and was pulled over, for what I can't remember but I was a little on edge because I didn't know what to expect, and I thought that the officer also seemed very on edge, it was probably both of us feeding off of that and mirroring each other's attitudes and amplifying it. He asked me to procure my registration, and when I reached into my glove compartment, he flashed his gigantic flashlight into my eyes. I decided it had to change.

So I raised my hands into the air so he could see them and simply spoke honestly to him. I said, "You are making me feel very nervous. I don't know what's going on here, but there are two of you and only one of me. I feel like I'm being set up here, or something. I'm just a guy trying to go home. It's dark, and you are flashing a very bright light in my eyes so that I can't even see you. You also have a loaded weapon and I do not, which makes for an extreme difference in the power dynamic here. Can you understand why I feel nervous?" I wasn't yelling, just speaking honestly. And it seemed to change his whole approach. He took the light out of my eyes, and kneeled down so that we were at eye level and apologized to me. Then he said that it's standard procedure for them to use their lights whenever anyone reaches for something, because they do not know whether any person has a firearm. I told him that I could understand his apprehension, but that I do not have a firearm, that I'm not a violent person, and that I was only "reaching" because he had specifically asked me to procure my registration, which is in my glovebox. He then let me get the registration without the bright light, and told me, "alright, I'm going to run this real quick and if everything checks out I'll get you outta here as quick as I can." He came back a minute or two later and handed me my license and registration without even a warning.

This is sage advice.  I suspect we're all (humans) conditioned to be stand-offish and tense, as far as interaction between citizens and police / military.  It doesn't have to be that way.  In fact, I'm trying to get my guys out of the cruisers and walking / biking around where they can interact and have conversations with people, about everyday stuff and local issues etc.  People need to know they can come up to us and talk, or ask for directions, or whatever.  Staffing is tough right now, so it's hard sometimes...

[Coconut]

In fact, I'm trying to get my guys out of the cruisers and walking / biking around where they can interact and have conversations with people, about everyday stuff and local issues etc.  People need to know they can come up to us and talk, or ask for directions, or whatever.  Staffing is tough right now, so it's hard sometimes...

If they do end up doing that, attempting to make small talk with people, make sure they expect to find people that would rather not be talking. We don't want to be rude, but we are used to officers only talking to someone when they are looking for a reason to arrest. My worst experiences have been with Fitchburg police and other agencies south and east of here along 101. They treat me as a guilty person until I convince them I'm innocent, and they get pissed when I don't want to give in to their interrogation.  ie. "What's in your Altoid tin?" "What were you doing in Lowell?"

There may be an abundance of "broad brush" statements on this forum, and I think we all understand that they are too overarching, but they don't come from nowhere.

[Shane Maxfield]

To all, it's "Maxfield" , not "Maxwell".  No biggie, but it's my real name.  Also, what are the "applaud" and "smite" links on the left?

To Kevin:

Fair enough. You mentioned elsewhere that some behaviors you feel a need to act on BEFORE it leads to victims and while I understand (and even once agreed with) that logic, I consider it faulty now. I can wrap this next statement in bubble-wrap to make it softer and gentler in many ways but the short answer is that I'd rather be a victim of dangerous behavior than a victim of "for your own protection." I don't fear drunk drivers, wheelieing motorbikers or beer-bottle throwing men any more than I fear being struck by lightning. Can it happen, sure. Should I change to mitigate it? No. However, I can feel my blood pressure rise when I see a police cruiser or hear sirens.

I'm gonna have to stand by my prevention before victim stance.  If there was a lightning-damaged tree leaning over your house, which may or may not end up crashing through your roof, you perhaps would deal with it rather than wait and see.  Or, if some guy at the next PorcFest brings his compound bow and starts firing arrows through the crowd, not hitting anyone, but coming pretty darn close, I suspect someone there would act before there was a victim.  By my dealing with the reckless motorcyclist, how would you become a victim of my actions?  I'm not seeing how I'm victimizing you by dealing with the reckless motorcyclist.

Regarding the gun confiscation thing, I would not do so as an LEO.  I see no scenario, flood or otherwise, where I would go house to house searching for and grabbing folks firearms.

I'm sorry that your experiences with the police have been negative.  I still don't think we're universally despised.

Regarding the open-carry trash pickup paragraph, I said that because on occasion we HAVE been notified of events like this.  If they've already let us know in the past, then why not again?  Hey, I don't care if they don't, and I have queried people as you've suggested.  I guess it's just that you're not the one who has to handle the deluge of phone calls from ignorant people panicked because they see a fellow with a Glock on his hip.  Soooo, basically I agree with you.  Good point.

I also agree with your point on allowing the liquor store shotgunner the same chance as Mark to re-apply for the right to carry.  Yes, I know that's not what you said, exactly, I think you want them to both be able to possess guns regardless of anything, equally.  I have to state that there are career violent criminals out there, the kind who shoot pregnant bank tellers killing their babies, who probably shouldn't be allowed to carry.

You make well thought-out points.

[Shane Maxfield]

In fact, I'm trying to get my guys out of the cruisers and walking / biking around where they can interact and have conversations with people, about everyday stuff and local issues etc.  People need to know they can come up to us and talk, or ask for directions, or whatever.  Staffing is tough right now, so it's hard sometimes...

If they do end up doing that, attempting to make small talk with people, make sure they expect to find people that would rather not be talking. We don't want to be rude, but we are used to officers only talking to someone when they are looking for a reason to arrest. My worst experiences have been with Fitchburg police and other agencies south and east of here along 101. They treat me as a guilty person until I convince them I'm innocent, and they get pissed when I don't want to give in to their interrogation.  ie. "What's in your Altoid tin?" "What were you doing in Lowell?"

There may be an abundance of "broad brush" statements on this forum, and I think we all understand that they are too overarching, but they don't come from nowhere.

Ok, fair enough...that actually explains much.  And again, I know there is some logical basis or reason or experience behind every comment on this board.

[Coconut]

Also, what are the "applaud" and "smite" links on the left?

Those affect Karma. If you click applaud on someone, their karma goes up one. Smite takes it down one. Just a peer rating system that helps determine at a glance which posters have a solid track record. You can only repeat an action on the same person once per hour.

Ok, fair enough...that actually explains much.

Care to share what exactly I explained? I could guess but I'd rather not assume

[kola]

for the "boys."

Are you calling me a liar? Google police brutality, police corruption and police violence.

This is just one video of thousands where cops are rabid. I am sure you are aware there are entire websites dedicated to only covering these kinds of things.


It is interesting that out of all those people who the cops picked out of the crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skhKBHSIh98

[Shane Maxfield]

for the "boys."

Are you calling me a liar? Google police brutality, police corruption and police violence.

This is just one video of thousands where cops are rabid. I am sure you are aware there are entire websites dedicated to only covering these kinds of things.


It is interesting that out of all those people who the cops picked out of the crowd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skhKBHSIh98

No one's calling you a liar, I'm sure you were beat up by the cops 20 years ago.  What I'm saying is even though you're bitten by a beagle 20 years ago doesn't mean that every beagle you see today is a bloodthirsty killer.

And there's no doubt there are bazillions of videos of cops abusing people...I've seen most of them and yes, I'm pretty disgusted too.  But I know most cops don't do that.  Lots of guys I've arrested in my career for beating the heck out of their women were wearing tanker t-shirts, but I'm not making the assumption that you do too, just because you're wearing one.  That would be absurd.

[kola]

No one's calling you a liar, I'm sure you were beat up by the cops 20 years ago.

Yeah your sure huh? You know my type huh? Yeah you know it all huh? You da man.

See this is the stuff that irks me...that rightous attitude bullshit and above the law arrogance.

Keep smoozing with the others.

You proved to me you aint no different then the rest of the scum.

Kola

[Caleb]

ok, once again I will repeat it. I have met many of the guys on the KPD, and especially have had several conversations with Shane, one conversation which lasted for well over an hour. I do not believe that he genuinely wants to hurt anyone. He seems especially concerned with protecting citizens from people who might harm them. I disagree with the idea that evil should be resisted with violence, but from what I have seen of Shane, I find it hard to believe that he takes any perverse delight in hurting people. He also carries a copy of the Constitution (maybe it's only the bill of rights, but I think it is the whole constitution) in his pocket. I have never encountered him when he was not carrying this in his shirt pocket, even when he wasn't expecting us. I have no reason to believe that he isn't genuine in his commitment to protect people and to show respect for the law. I have never seen any indication that he considers himself "above the law." Once again, I do not like the law, nor do I like the Constitution, but accusations that he is a "bad cop", are not fair.  I do not believe in enforcing laws, but let's please try to frame our discussion in ways that do not attack participants or slander them as people.