I was banned from Murphy's Taproom

[Mike Barskey]

If you want to see what service is like in the absence of a tipping convention, spend some time in France. It's not pretty.

then again ... most service industries do not receive tips ... and you still get service.
not having to tip is one of the reasons I go to restaurants where I order at a counter and pick up my food there also (like all of our village pizza places here in the Shire). I used to get frustrated in california .... why am I paying someone to keep me thirsty?
I don't tip at the grocery store or walmart and usually get friendly service.

Good point. Why isn't it customary to tip the pizza maker, when it is customary to tip the delivery boy? Why not the cashier when you pick up the pizza yourself? What about shoe-salesmen? Chimney sweeps? Phone operators? How about police officers (and I mean this seriously - I don't condone the existence of their jobs, but if a cop does extraordinarily good service, like catching you smoking pot and ignoring the issue, why not tip him?)?

I, too, prefer conducting business where tips are not expected (or required!). They earn my business for creating an atmosphere I prefer.

[Mike Barskey]

i think you're a super cool guy, but i probably would have done the same. ill have to side with keith on this one.

would you really kick out customers if they didn't tip on credit card bills?
would you add tips to patrons bills after they leave?

I'm curious, too. Jared. What are your answers?

Thanks for the compliment, by the way, Jared. I do appreciate it!

[Mike Barskey]

If you want to see what service is like in the absence of a tipping convention, spend some time in France. It's not pretty.

I don't know if that's due to tipping customs.  They don't tip in Japan either, and I've never seen better service.

Then again, everything in Japan costs twice as much to begin with.

Good points on both accounts. Good service is certainly possible without a tipping infrastructure, and one alternative to tipping is that products and services might cost more. Yay free market!

[MengerFan]

So I am really confused as to how a principle that leads to a conclusion where individuals are not being compnsated for services rendered while you walk away paying a lower price than others can be considered virtuous. It sure seems to me that you are your own reductio ad absurdum.

Consider the following scenario. There is a cow farmer in the area who has raw milk. Everyone knows somehow that if you want to acquire some of this raw milk, you sneak into his barn at night, pour yourself a gallon, and slip $3 underneath a hay bale. Suppose you want some milk and go over one night to pour yourself some. How does your principle dictate that you will behave with regard to leaving money under the hay bale? Does it not apply in this situation? Why not?


Also curious, does your principle include letting servers know up front that you will not be tipping them? Why or why not? Do you think that holding back this information could be considered fraudulent?

Cheers...

[Mike Barskey]

No one got fired for stealing from customers (adding tip to credit card) so Murphy must tacitly approve, even though he gave the money back when he got caught at it.

That is a very good point. I hadn't considered it explicitly. I did realize that in at least one of the incidents, someone at Murphy's stole from me, but I didn't realize that since nothing came of that, Keith approves or accepts it!

[Mike Barskey]

15% is a standard tip. 20% or more is a way to reward for exceptional service. That's how I've heard it many times. I used to be a waiter.

Where do these numbers come from, Dale? What does it mean to say that 15% of the amount you agreed to pay means that extraordinarily good service was received? Why do some geo-political areas think that 20% means the same thing, or that any tipping is an insult? It seems like an arbitrary custom to me that people follow because it's what they know, not having ever thought about it too deeply.

I think where this comes from is that FSPers have developed a rep of not tipping well at Murphy's and so I think a lot of waiters kind of dread Tuesdays when it floods with FSPers and they're really busy and yet don't make much money. I wonder if it has to do with the food discounts. There are a few little points about tips that a lot of people don't understand. One is you don't tip on tax. You tip on the subtotal. Another is you're not supposed to base your tip on the discounted price. If you get a discount, like the considerable discounts on Tuesdays, you should still tip as if you paid full price. Since most people just look at their bill and tip based on that, I can see how this might be a common problem on Tuesdays. Maybe that's why Keith is saying 20%, just to simplify, though that's actually a low tip based on the Tuesday discounts, particularly if you buy appetizers before 6.

It is possible that FSPers have a reputation as bad tippers. I don't know. But should the reputation of a group affect everyone, especially such an amorphous group where individuals with different tipping habits are constantly coming and going?

You also mention more tipping customs (tip on pre-tax amount, tip on pre-discount amount). Why are these the "standards?" I agree that they're commonly done in the US, but what does it mean? Am I a bad person if I tip 20%, but only on the discounted portion?

All of this is just convention, of course. Tips are not required generally. However, considering that the government started doing things like lowering minimum wage for services which typically get tips and even taxing people as if they got 15% tips in some places, I can see how the topic gets so complicated.

Ah, I see. You were just listing customs, not saying they should be followed. My bad.

And, yes, I can definitely see how government intrusion into personal contracts (like employer-employee and owner-customer) confused everything!

Still, when I was a waiter, we knew of certain groups of people who were notoriously difficult customers and/or notoriously poor tippers (usually both). We had it beaten into our heads both by managers and senior wait staff that you don't dare treat them differently for it. It just seemed like a hazard of the industry that you had to deal with or get another job. The way we often dealt with it is we'd kind of help each other out with those customers and take turns serving them. It was a way of spreading out the pain.

That's an excellent point, and a good free-market solution! Keith's solution, by the way, was also free-market, but I don't think it is as good as yours.

Lots of places add 15% gratuity to groups of 8 or more. Considering the crowds and confusion on Tuesdays, I wouldn't be offended by a 15% gratuity added to the bill (subtotal ignoring discounts) as we are essentially one large party. People can always supplement that amount.

I disagree with you here. Ironically, Keith told me he does not support this part of the tipping tradition: Murphy's apparently does not automatically add any gratuity to large groups. I'm glad, because I think this is essentially anti-tipping! There's nothing wrong with it, because you're telling the customer about it up front - you're building it into the contract (although I do have a problem calling it a "gratuity!").

But to me, it defeats the purpose of tipping to automatically include a pre-set amount before the service is even received! What incentive remains for the waiter to provide good service? He's already received his 18%!

[Mike Barskey]

Lots of places add 15% gratuity to groups of 8 or more.

The first and only time this happened to me I called the cops and tried to get the manager arrested.

Wow. That seems harsh to me. I'm not trying to be harsh with you, and I'm glad you acted on your principles, but, assuming the restaurant informed you of that in advance (I'm assuming!), then there is no theft and I would not initiate the aggression of cops.

But I do despise that tipping custom!

[Mike Barskey]

Sounds like the libertarian pitfall of an incident that turned into a debate about tipping, and then the fact that someone altered a bill got lost (or at least glossed over).

Twice having a bill altered...

I am SO glad I'm not the only one who noticed that.  I bit my tongue in my original post on the subject, waiting to see if an alternate side of the story would be presented.  But taking someone's money, not only against their will, but after they've clearly indicated in writing, on a legally binding credit card receipt, that they deny permission to do so, isn't that... wait, don't tell me, I know this one.... THEFT?  I wonder how many other Free Staters have had their credit card receipts alterred and just failed to notice?  

Yes, it is indeed theft, in at least one of the two incident I encountered. And, good point: how often does this occur and people don't notice or don't care?

[Mike Barskey]

When I was in Scotland, I ordered some Whisky, and it was like L1.70.  I gave them L2 and walked away.  They chased me down to give me my 30 pence back.  I told them they could keep it.  They refused and left it on the table and end up giving me WORSE service.

Another example of receiving excellent service in the absence of tipping. Thanks for your story.

[Mike Barskey]

I think it's childish to ban someone because they don't pay a tip.  Are they going to ban people who DON'T order food next and just come for Taproom Tuesday?

That's also a good point, and it's ironic because I was not going to order food or drink last night at Murphy's! I was only going to be there a shorter time than normal and was planning dinner afterwards. Funny.

[error]

You weren't there long enough to notice, but one of the regular staff was indeed not there last night.

[Mike Barskey]

So I am really confused as to how a principle that leads to a conclusion where individuals are not being compnsated for services rendered while you walk away paying a lower price than others can be considered virtuous. It sure seems to me that you are your own reductio ad absurdum.

Consider the following scenario. There is a cow farmer in the area who has raw milk. Everyone knows somehow that if you want to acquire some of this raw milk, you sneak into his barn at night, pour yourself a gallon, and slip $3 underneath a hay bale. Suppose you want some milk and go over one night to pour yourself some. How does your principle dictate that you will behave with regard to leaving money under the hay bale? Does it not apply in this situation? Why not?

Is the $3 agreed upon between the cow farmer and me (and everyone who "knows")? Or is it merely tradition? If the cow farmer has told us or posted a sign or whatever, indicating that we are free to take his milk whenever, as long as we leave $3, then this example relates to Murphy's: it is a charge for products/services that I agree to or don't. So if I take the milk and don't pay, I am stealing or breaking a contract or something of that ilk.

But if it's just tradition to pay $3 - maybe someone did it once to be kind or responsible, and someone else saw it and did it too, and then it became tradition, then if someone didn't do it, all they're "guilty" of is breaking tradition, or being different or a rebel, or possibly being rude, etc.

Also curious, does your principle include letting servers know up front that you will not be tipping them? Why or why not? Do you think that holding back this information could be considered fraudulent?

I used to have a business card printed that said something like "I do not tip because X, but I thought your service was" and then I circled a number from 1 to 10, with 10 being "extraordinary" or something like that (and "X" was a generic reason that I don't tip - my reasons would not fit on a business card). I would leave that as a tip. I do not do that any more because I think without explaining why I don't tip, it might come across as an insult. Although, not tipping might come across as an insult (even though I tell a server when I appreciate excellent service), so I might have to rethink that.

I do not tell servers up front that I will not be tipping, but I am not opposed to the idea. In fact, I'm considering it. It would cause me even more social discomfort, but it might be a good thing to do. However, what would be the purpose? Would it be to let the server know they didn't have to provide excellent service? Would that mean that servers should only provide excellent service if they are assured a good tip? If that's true, then why doesn't the employer pay them more or put a sign up that says "15% or greater tips are required?" Tipping, even as it's commonly understood, is optional - it's intended (though misused) as a reward for good service, not as a bribe for it.

Your thoughts?

[Mike Barskey]

You weren't there long enough to notice, but one of the regular staff was indeed not there last night.

I don't know what that means? What someone fired?

[Mike Barskey]

By the way, thank you all for this discussion! It is so refreshing to have received this kind of response! I'm used to hiding my principles and philosophy, and when I did reveal them I was used to not much though and a lot of do-what-every-one-else-is-doing sheeple mentality.

Here, everyone on all sides of the issue are discussing and asking and sharing. And teaching me new ideas, and causing me to rethink mine. I wasn't expecting such a reception to a potentially ugly and confrontational situation, but I really appreciate it.

I do not regret moving to NH and meeting so many of you!

[shyfrog]

My 2 cents over at Teaparty