I was banned from Murphy's Taproom

[K. Darien Freeheart]

The only question here is that Mike Barsky chooses not to tip.  The alternative for him and people who do not understand the importance of tipping is to give these special people menus with 20% higher prices, to compensate the servers appropriately.  Take your pick.

Some people argue that without small government there would be chaos! Oh noes! 

Your statement hinges on the assumption that "servers must make 20% more than the advertised price". Nobody is questioning where that 20% comes from, they're stating they have an issue with the expectation that it come from the customer. If your waitstaff need that 20% and customers aren't willing to pay it in tips, either they can be charged more or they can be PAID 20% more.

I think it's rude to not tip. I tip well, I think. That said, I think any restaurant owner who EXPECTS me to tip is an ass, and I'd prefer not to do business with them. It seems that this has turned into a "the customer has the burden to pay employee wages" and that assumption is wrong yet it seems pretty clear to me that Murphy's management HAS that expectation.

[SamIam]

The alternative for him and people who do not understand the importance of tipping is to give these special people menus with 20% higher prices, to compensate the servers appropriately.  Take your pick.  

Another option might be to put a note in the menu explaining the food prices are discounted by 20% which reduces our servers pay, to ensure quality service.

That would seem to explain your position, and I wouldn't have much of an objection to that.

[Rearden]

Of course the customer pays the employee's wage.  It's that way in every single business.  In the restaurant business, it's just a lot more direct.

So either I can pay all of my servers the $12 per hour they generally average - and raise all of my prices significantly in order to do so (including the extra money we'd have to send the IRS) or people can tip.  I prefer the current system.

But if you don't, and you don't want to tip the standard 15% in exchange for good service, then please let the server know and he will get you the special menu with the higher prices.  

Take your pick.

This is an argument by people with no understanding of basic economics.  If I raised my prices in order to pay the staff more than $3.27/hour, and stopped "being cheap," as Mike has said, then I would be out of business because people would still tip - as is customary.  They would just stop coming in because all of the prices were way higher than the rest of the market.  

If you don't understand this, I can't help you.  

[John]

I was also recalling that a very bright guy on the radio used to say that tips were at one time given in advance.
I went to Wikipedia to see if they had anything to say about that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip

[ColdSoul]

A couple issues/ideas on this, since we are for the free market and people to make free choices here is what I would like to add as a semi-formula:

1) Keith owns the bar, makes the rules, hires the staff, decides who is allowed in and not
2) Do to #1 Keith decides on if he would like to pay his staff the minimum or if he wants to pay them more
3) Do to #2 Keith decides if tipping is allowed, not allowed or mandatory, etc.
4) Mike is a free person and is allowed to contract or not contract freely as is Keith
5) Mike is free to tip, or not tip but if he is in a place of business and wishes to enjoy the services of the business he needs to follow through with the contract
6) BUT the contract didn't include that the tip was mandatory
7) Both parties are free to make changes to the future contracts between said parties and if the contract isn't accepted by both parties then it is void

So it seems pretty simple in the fact that if you follow this line of thought then Keith is wrong for not following through with his contract to let Mike stay after he paid for items, it would seem unless he kicks people out after a period of time without buying anything normally. Keith should have said your free to finish the night but in all future times you come here you need to tip, or you won't be allowed in at all (or something like this if that's his policy)

BUT I think this is bad on Keith for hiding the fact (no notice on the wall or anything) that customers must tip, be it 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% ect. Because unless he does so he is hiding the true cost outside of the "valid" contract unless it is posted somewhere in the Bar at the entrance.

I think Keith and the waiter/ess wouldn't want a sign because it might lower the amount of business, and possibly if it says 10% is mandatory, nobody might tip over 10% but that doesn't make it right to hide the fact that tips are mandatory.

That being said I would and do tip if I have the money, if I am short on funds then I normally don't tip but of course I don't go to resturants when I am low on funds 99.9% of the time, though I do go to other places that have tip jars. But what I try to do is make up for it the next time I visit that establishment by tipping a little extra next time.

Also as I stated having a lower salary for the waiter/ess allows the food and items to be cheaper due to the fact that they are paying less. This allows the establishment in theory to have more staff which can make the service better also in theory.

It seems to me in just about every place that tipping is normal, or mandatory, or expected you will find that there are a lot of "down" times in those jobs, they have extermely busy times, and extremely slow times. By implementing a "tipping custom" it allowed the people to keep the stores open during the slow times, reduce the cost of goods or get better service during the busy times.

Keith is right to not allow Mike back, but he should have let Mike stay for the rest of the evening

Mike is right in that he shouldn't be forced to tip if it's not included in the upfront part of the contract

Keith should either inform the customers that tipping is mandatory beforehand, or not kick people out for not tipping on a individual basis.

Personally I feel that tipping is the right thing to do under most circumstances if the workers are getting paid less because tips are expected, but it shouldn't be made mandatory unless the customer is informed.

[Mike Barskey]

There is an incorrect assumption that has been picked up in this thread, and it needs to be cleared up.

No one stole from Mike Barsky.  The server simply misread his zero to be a four.  His zero did indeed look much like a four.  It can be shown to anyone who asks to see it for themselves.  There was no theft, there was only an error in the reading of the number.  When Mike was shown the slip he admitted it looked like a four, and he admitted it in his blog.

You are incorrect. It was intentional. I have no evidence, only my word. My claim is that I wrote a solid "0" (zero) on the tip line - I have been doing so for years. And I never write dollars without the cents on any financial document (I do in newspaper ads, for example, write "$10" instead of "10.00", but when I write a receipt or a check or any official money-related document, I always write "$10.00").

My claim is that this incident was intentional theft. I think the first incident was, as well, but I did not see the receipt and hence I do not know.

The only question here is that Mike Barsky chooses not to tip.  The alternative for him and people who do not understand the importance of tipping is to give these special people menus with 20% higher prices, to compensate the servers appropriately.

That's an interesting idea. The menu could have 2 prices: one for those who tip, and one for those who don't. Would the non-tipping price have to include 15% more than the normal price? 20%? Would there be multiple prices, like "price for those that tip 15%: $10.00" and "price for those that tip 20%: $8.00" and "price for those that don't tip: $14.00" Hmmm. I'm not sure this would work.

ADDED: Servers and bartenders do not usually bother with pennies, but they are expected to provide change to the nearest nickel.  If this does not happen, please ask to speak to the manager immediately and the problem will be rectified with disciplinary action.

I suppose as long as you tell customers in advance that you will be rounding off the pennies and sometimes taking some of the customers pennies and other times giving them a few extra, it's OK. But I don't know if I'd choose to do business there. I probably would, if it were only for pennies. But if they started rounding off quarters, I probably wouldn't.

[Mike Barskey]

If you don't understand this, I can't help you.  

That's either not a very friendly way to have a discussion, or you can't defend or explain your position any better. I guess you can't help me.

[Mike Barskey]

A friend of mine just pointed something out to me. We've pretty much established here that Keith is requiring customers to tip, or he doesn't want them as customers. If tips are required, the wait-staff knows this. If they know they are going to get a tip, where is the incentive to provide excellent service? They can provide mediocre or bad service and they will get a tip anyway. This seems true for all repeat customers.

[Giggan]

I was in a bar in Montreal and got a drink, and tipped what came out to about 18%. Next drink I ordered, I gave the girl 10 Canadian credits for a $5 drink, and she gave me $4 back. That kinda ruined my mood, but I didn't say anything. It was exactly what I was going to give, but it became involuntary. I think the girl thought I was drunk and wouldn't notice, but if so she was incorrect on both counts.

In the same way, tipping has become involuntary. Bad service I have yet to drop below 10% for. Okay 15, great service 18-25. It is the equivalent of a wage because it's expected they'll make it. This is a great example of how social rule has established itself without legislative law. Maybe the way to change this is for business owners to create their own culture. There could be a sign at the business, "Tips not required, but appreciated", etc, wherein the employees are making a decent wage that's worked into the price of the meal.

[Mike Barskey]

Mike, I think you're an awesome activist and I hope the discussion in this thread helps you and others grow in their understanding of this strange custom....Your issue with tipping however, doesn't seem to be related to finances, but is simply an objection to the custom.

Wow. Thanks for the compliment! I hope to live up to it!

Yes, my issue is with the meaning of the actions in the custom of tipping - not with the amounts or with finances or money.

The world of tipping is certainly a confusing and arbitrary one, and I cannot defend tipping as a custom.  Nor do I intend to defend the business practices of Murphy's.  It is my intention to help you understand tipping in this culture.

Thanks.

I think all you need is a little compassion for the people that work as your restaurant servers.  I understand where restaurant servers are coming from, especially since I have known several.  Julia was one in Florida, in fact.  Knowing servers is why I now understand why tipping is so important.
...
Waiting tables is a stressful job. I don't imagine there are very many servers who took the job for its wonderful base pay of $2 or $3/hr. Restaurant server jobs are always available and many of the people who take them want to get paid based on performance and take some cash home at the end of the night.  Servers are working to please you in order to earn a tip.  This is the reality we live in, and I'd like to be crystal clear:

I was a busboy, once, so I'm familiar with serving (I did it a couple times when servers were absent). And I have well over 10 years of first-hand experience with how people treat you if you don't tip - from servers to hairstylists to taxi drivers, to friends and strangers.

You may be right about my needing some compassion. I can easily see how someone could make that argument about me (however, the few people who know me really well know that I am capable of feeling compassion and empathy). But I'm not sure that's the foundation of my issues with tipping.

Serving can be a stressful job. So can working the register at Burger King during lunch-rush (I did that). But custom is to tip waitresses but not Burger King cashiers. Burger King employees don't get paid a lot either - in California they get paid approximately the same as low-end-restaurant servers do (excluding tips, of course). Being a FedEx deliverer might be a stressful job, too, but there is no custom to tip them - they do get paid much more, though. So shouldn't the argument be against government interference in setting minimum wages, instead of against people who do not participate in the tradition that "makes up for it?" Isn't this akin to being against welfare instead of against immigrants?

If you do not tip, you'll be ostracized by those in the service industry.
...
If you do not tip, the quality of service delivered to you will decline.
...
As people who know you discover that you do not tip, you may find it hard to find people who will go out to eat with you.

I have been ostracized for not tipping from those within and without the service industry, and I have experience declining service for not tipping in the past (I have also repeatedly patronized businesses where I don't tip and not received declining service). I'm not aware of anyone not wanting to eat at a restaurant with me because I don't tip, but I do not doubt that it has happened.

But I don't want to cave in to "peer pressure." If most people around me ostracize me for living up to my principles, I'm not going to stop living up to my principles. As you might imagine, it would be much more comfortable for me, socially, to tip! Almost everyone does it, and most people actually frown upon (or worse) people who don't. If I just tipped, I wouldn't have any awkward social interactions or any ostracism (at least, none related to not-tipping). But tipping just doesn't work for me. No one has yet convinced me that it's not arbitrary, or that it's effective in accomplishing the goal they say it is meant to accomplish (which varies). All people have convinced me of is that many people don't like people who don't tip. That's not (yet) a reason for me to tip.

I want the people that I do business with to like me. In our culture, tipping is a real tangible way to show appreciation for a job well done.

But that's one thing I disagree with. I agree tipping is real and tangible, but I think it is almost ineffective in showing appreciation for a job well done. Even when tips are given for that purpose, this culture turns that around and uses the tip to determine whether future service will be good or bad. Are there no other ways of showing appreciation? I thank people personally, verbally, for excellent service. I guess it's possible for them to think "this guy is going out of his way to thank me, but he really doesn't mean it," but that doesn't seem likely; whereas many people here have admitted to tipping for bad service! What message does that reveal? Is that showing appreciation for a job well done?

One possibility for me to "fit" into society better might be this: if a friend doesn't want to eat out with me because I don't tip, I could give him the money, and he could tip. Then I'd essentially be buying his friendship. Hmmm, not sure if I like that idea. Perhaps a friend that doesn't want to associate with me because I don't tip is not someone I want as a friend? I need to think about that more, too.

In return, you'll find that the people providing you with the service will appreciate you back and give you even better service in the future.

That is definitely true. Treat others well and they will likely treat you well. I'm friendly to most people, thank them verbally for great service, volunteer to help people when I can, and am true to my word; I hope they treat me the same.

I hope you'll reconsider your viewpoint!

I will. I am. I have been rethinking my position for the past 19 hours. Hell, for the past 10-15 years.

Thanks for your thoughts and your very friendly tone and compliment.

[Mike Barskey]

In the same way, tipping has become involuntary. Bad service I have yet to drop below 10% for. Okay 15, great service 18-25. It is the equivalent of a wage because it's expected they'll make it. This is a great example of how social rule has established itself without legislative law. Maybe the way to change this is for business owners to create their own culture. There could be a sign at the business, "Tips not required, but appreciated", etc, wherein the employees are making a decent wage that's worked into the price of the meal.

Great thoughts. I like the idea of people creating their own culture and customs. Dale suggested that earlier, as well. If I wanted to start a business in what is commonly considered a tipping industry, I would indeed create my own culture and see how it thrived or died. Or evolved.

[Rearden]

Mike, virtually everyone tips.  You're the only one who has told me he doesn't tip, as a matter of policy.

I'm not going to post a sign with fifty rules at the front door - when virtually everyone knows those customs anyway.

Again, Mike is welcome back, with the understanding that I will automatically add 15% onto his check to compensate the staff.  Mike does not understand the economics of the business.  He tells me I should just pay everyone the $12/hour they generally get, and I am "being cheap" for not doing so.

If I pay all of my servers and bartenders $12 per hour, my payroll will skyrocket.  I'll have to pass on that costs (and now we have FICA!) to the customers in the form of higher prices.  99.999% of people will still tip, because that's the custom, only now they'll complain that the prices are much too high.  (I'm talking about charging $6 for a beer and $11 for a hamburger, guys).  They'll go down the street where the prices are still low.  Also, the service would suck because the staff would get $12 per hour regardless of their speed or friendliness.  

I would be out of business in a matter of weeks.

Again, this is basic economics.  I'm not saying it to be rude, I'm saying it because it's true: if you don't understand this train of thought, then I don't know how much I'll be able to help you understand it.  It seems pretty simple to me.

Happily, Mike, there is an easy solution: you come on in anytime, and I'll just add 15% to your check to give to your server.  That way, I can still have my low prices for the 99.9999% of people who tip, and you can pay your higher prices with the labor cost built in, and you don't have to tip.

Everybody wins!

(And there was no theft.  His "0" looks very like a "4."  I'm not making it up.  If I were a server, I would have probably made the same mistake - because it's easier to believe that Mike just makes his 4s funny than someone would just not tip.)

Tell you what, Mike, I'll frame the credit card slip and hang it over the mantel, and everybody can judge for themselves.  Sound good to you?

[John]

My final thought for now is that I used to have some cards (folded once, to be business size) which I got from the Advocates For Self Government.

The cover of the cards said, "THIS IS NOT A TIP!" Inside it explained something like, "This is a gift and therefore not taxable under whatever IRS/xyz rule" was said to apply. I think the card probably went on to say that this was not leagal advice etc., and on the back the world's smallest political quiz.

Those were fun to give out - Always with a nice gift.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

If I pay all of my servers and bartenders $12 per hour, my payroll will skyrocket.  I'll have to pass on that costs (and now we have FICA!) to the customers in the form of higher prices.  99.999% of people will still tip, because that's the custom, only now they'll complain that the prices are much too high.  (I'm talking about charging $6 for a beer and $11 for a hamburger, guys).

Right there I think you're making a fair arguement.

My issue with what you'd said up until this point is essentially "customers have the burden to pay the waitstaff" and this is false. That's your job as their employer. If you can't compensate them with what you're making now, it IS a matter of economics that you'd need to raise prices and I don't think anyone here objects to that. What's at stake when people don't tip is your profit margin, not the livelyhood of the waitstaff because you're required by law to compensate them anyway. Respecting a business's profit is a dandy thing (I call myself a capitalist!) but I think it's dishonest to place the burden for compensation of employees on the customer.

And what are you charging for burgers and beer now? O_o $5.50 is standard for a beer around here in places of Applebee's or better quality (which most bars fall into) and $11 for a burger doesn't make me cringe either. And there's still the expectation to tip.

The cover of the cards said, "THIS IS NOT A TIP!"  Inside it explained something like, "This is a gift and therefore not taxable under whatever IRS/xyz rule" was said to apply. I think the card probably went on to say that this was not leagal advice etc., and on the back the world's smallest political quiz.

Those were fun to give out - Always with a nice gift.

One of the guys at the local FSP group has those. I'm looking for something more anarchist leaning and less biased, but I love the idea.

[FTL_Ian]

Mike, I wasn't suggesting that you were incapable of being compassionate, just that you might need a little bit more empathy in the area of taking care of your waitstaff.

Serving can be a stressful job. So can working the register at Burger King during lunch-rush (I did that). But custom is to tip waitresses but not Burger King cashiers. Burger King employees don't get paid a lot either - in California they get paid approximately the same as low-end-restaurant servers do (excluding tips, of course). Being a FedEx deliverer might be a stressful job, too, but there is no custom to tip them - they do get paid much more, though.
...
All people have convinced me of is that many people don't like people who don't tip. That's not (yet) a reason for me to tip.

Being a restaurant server means you are paid based on performance.  That is why it's not fair to compare it to other stressful hourly jobs that are not paid based on performance.  While it is certainly true that being a friendly customer is better than being an angry customer, it is also true that the waitress cannot pay her power bill with your friendly smile.  This is the reason to tip:  To help these folks pay the bills, buy a little weed (most servers love weed), and give you good service in the future.

So shouldn't the argument be against government interference in setting minimum wages, instead of against people who do not participate in the tradition that "makes up for it?" Isn't this akin to being against welfare instead of against immigrants?

Certainly, the minimum wage is a major problem in this realm, but until that is solved we still have the real situation of people working in these roles, and how to treat them.  Your server got the job because she wanted to be paid based on performance, she performed for you, and you give her nothing.  That sucks any way you slice it.

many people here have admitted to tipping for bad service! What message does that reveal?

If the server is doing a bad job, it may be because they're having a tough night, or are brand-new.  I do not believe they should walk home with empty pockets as a result.  If they are doing an abysmal job and are mean, then certainly they should not receive a tip, and the manager should be informed.