I Will Be Boycotting the NHUnderground Forums

[Pat K]

We all know you want a pig, PatK.

I just thought it did not even need to be stated.

[Pat K]

I boycotted the NHUnderground forum once... because I ran out of strawberries... No One seemed to notice.
Nothing got better either...  until I bought more strawberries.

If only you had said something

Oh sure... and listen to every one's bullshit about how I was wrong... how I'm responsible for my own actions... some people are allergic to strawberries... what to do if I get hives from berries... a youtube of Berry White... Chuck Berry... Blue Berry Hill... Mary's getting a thrill from KB... Roger's picture of me with an unfortunately placed strawberry(which is a fake by the way)... screw it, I'll just get some more strawberries... it was a halve hour... get over it... jeez Llloyd... pick scabs... it isn't like I carry a MAC 11 on a shoe string ready cap every drunk who calls me a piece of shit... cause a pile of those drunks would be really high.

[JAC]

I was there that day.  Cooper, Jonny Ray, and myself drove up just as the altercation was occurring.  I quickly jumped out of the car and, as I was walking towards the situation to aid in ending it, I saw an older gentleman with his left hand on Jesse's shoulder and his right hand clenched and drawn back.  He looked absolutely ready to throw a punch.

Jesse's demeanor, on the other hand, was one clearly looking to get out of the situation.  He was leaning away from the man grabbing him and his hands were down at his hips.  He was trying - as non-violently as possible - to withdraw himself from the situation.

I quickly got in between the two and got Jesse out of there - since he was about to be punched.  He got into Cooper's car and they drove off.


I then approached the people on the other side of the conflict and asked them what occurred.  I talked them out of their drunken frenzy and did my best to soothe the situation.  But they still decided it was a good idea to write Cooper's license plate number down and call the cops.  The cops came and asked whose car "that was", motioning towards Cooper's.  Cooper said it was his and they asked to talk to him.

As one of the cops questioned Cooper it was told to us, by the cop himself, that the cops have "had to deal with these people many times before."  And, "as soon as we got a call telling us to come to Church St., we knew who we were gonna have to deal with it."

The cops have dealt with these drunkards before and they were very nice to us about the situation.


All of the evidence - from my first observation of the scene, to my discussion with Jesse's assailants, to my interaction with the police, point to the situation being entirely the fault of the drunk neighbors.  "On oath and affirmation", I affirm Jesse's innocence and maturity in his handling of the situation.  It could have been A LOT worse, but Jesse maintained his cool throughout.

I felt the piece written was unnecessarily and unjustifiably critical, and that it did not contain all the information concerning the events that day.  I was there.  I saw.  The neighbors were the aggressors.  Jesse was acting in self-defense.  No one was shot.  So why is anyone complaining about Jesse?

Makes no sense to me...

[anthonybpugh]

maybe people are complaining about Jesse because he lacks common sense.  You walk up to a bunch of rowdy drunks and attempt to talk sense to them?  Yeah.  That's a bright move right for ya.  That is the kind of thing you do when you are trying to get your ass kicked. 

[akmisrmaadi]

i think he did the right thing approaching to attempt to solve the problem he had.

what would you guys rather he do? call govt thugs who will simply come and arrest everyone for nothing? if those idiots have a problem with someone calling them out and they go into assault mode, they are going to get shot. i don't see what the problem is. except... the law... that pesky little thing

[AntonLee]

sounds like people are under the impression that Jesse is the drunk whisperer. . . he seeks them out and finds them. . .and then what?

Maybe I didn't read it hard enough, but did he go out to find the drunks?  Or did they come to him?

[dalebert]

My opinions are as follows.

The neighbors should be minding their own business. Jesse was minding his own business.

I know Kat's a pacifist and I understand her opinion but it seemed excessive to use Jesse's name in the anecdote. That made it seem personal and vindictive.

The gun Jesse was carrying is particularly "flashy" and I believe he was carrying it in a really inappropriate manner that day that was likely to draw negative attention, even from open carry advocates. I spent 10 mins berating him about that earlier; might have even been that same day. I could be wrong about this but my understanding was he had no other way to carry it at the time which is why I assume he was carrying it in that inappropriate way. Jesse argued with me a little bit but ultimately seemed pretty reasonable and understood my concerns. I believe he addressed the problem shortly after this incident to his credit.

I do think Jesse was trying to diffuse the situation but I agree he made a mistake to expect a calm, logical discussion of guns with folks who appear drunk and belligerent on top of an already irrational anti-gun viewpoint. I would have gone into my home quickly or just walked quickly away without engaging. If that wasn't diffusing the situation, i.e. like they're still pursuing or banging on his door, I would have called the cops. Yes, that's right. At that point, an altercation is likely and the cops are probably going to be involved no matter what. I've always heard you want to be the one who called them if they're going to be there anyway, especially if a gun was ever drawn, or Heaven forbid, fired. You get the first word about what's going on and the other party seems more likely to be perceived as the aggressor. In this case, Jesse was fortunate that they had a reputation but I could easily see it going the other way. It seems he got lucky. But I present this simply as advice for the future and not to berate Jesse. I told him as much and felt like he took it as constructive criticism for the future.

Most of us weren't there and it's easy to be Monday morning quarterbacks but it's hard to decide what to do in a situation like that. I think most of us carry guns and hopefully dreading actually having to use them. I think it's more likely to prevent violence by its very presence than to result in unnecessary violence. This particular anecdote is a sort of perfect storm where that wasn't the case but I don't think it's typical.

I've been very critical of Jesse before and I'm sure there will be plenty more times in the future. He's still young and has a bit of that familiar bravado of the angry young libertarian, but I must admit that he does seem to take what people have to say as constructive criticism if it's presented tactfully. I agree with Ryan that "he has shown a remarkable amount of acceptance to critique and discourse about his activities".

[Lloyd Danforth]

I boycotted the NHUnderground forum once... because I ran out of strawberries... No One seemed to notice.
Nothing got better either...  until I bought more strawberries.

If only you had said something

Oh sure... and listen to every one's bullshit about how I was wrong... how I'm responsible for my own actions... some people are allergic to strawberries... what to do if I get hives from berries... a youtube of Berry White... Chuck Berry... Blue Berry Hill... Mary's getting a thrill from KB... Roger's picture of me with an unfortunately placed strawberry(which is a fake by the way)... screw it, I'll just get some more strawberries... it was a halve hour... get over it... jeez Llloyd... pick scabs... it isn't like I carry a MAC 11 on a shoe string ready cap every drunk who calls me a piece of shit... cause a pile of those drunks would be really high.

Still, if you had brought it up we might have gotten as many as 6 pages out of it!

[Sam A. Robrin]

You walk up to a bunch of rowdy drunks and attempt to talk sense to them?  Yeah.  That's a bright move right for ya.  That is the kind of thing you do when you are trying to get your ass kicked. 

I've also had neighbors start fights with me because I ignored them.  They wanted a fight, and were going to find one, whatever it took.  If you don't mind my saying so (or even if you do), I suspect you're coming from a similar mindset. Had Jesse turned and walked away, would you be criticizing him for snubbing his neighbors? 
     I come from a Quaker background, so I'm obviously no stranger to pacifism, but it's grown completely undeniable to me that the practice works only with certain select opponents.  From all I've heard about these characters, the single effective response was likely to be "I'll see your fist, and raise you this't . . ."

[FTL_Ian]

I was also on the scene prior to the incident.  Those drunk assholes were heckling everyone.  Best to avoid them, though they may have taken an interest in Jesse if they noticed him crossing the street to avoid him.  So, who knows.

Either way, is it pacifism to draw a gun and not shoot anyone?

If so, what if the gun is fake, but looks real?

[Fluff and Stuff]

He was armed and sober and should have ignored taunts from
drunks.

My former martial arts teacher said lesson one of self defense is to not be there in the first place.  Jesse could have avoided the most tense part of the situation if he would have ignored them and tried to actively stay away from there.  If someone appears drunk and is making fun of you, best to avoid them.  If a group of guys you don't know well is making fun of you, best to avoid them.  Although, I see how Jesse could have made the bad choice to interact with these folks considering they are his neighbors and he wanted to be on decent terms with them.

However, the fact that they called the police on him when they were the ones legally and morally in the wrong (what Jesse did wasn't morally or legally wrong - it was just a very bad idea), shows that they were not to be trusted under any circumstance.  If I was Jesse I would try to avoid contact with these unsavory characters in the future.

About Kat's article.  I wouldn't have written it out of respect for Jesse - especially since he was not in the wrong legally or morally but a victim of verbal aggression.  Even though he put himself in a terrible situation, he was able to use his gun to get out of the situation.  The article does touch on some truth but also appears to be anti-Second Amendment.  Although, I doubt that matters to Kat because she has an understanding of what liberty means which is well beyond what the US Constitution says.

As for everyone else, I'd think very strongly about a situation in which you used a gun to defend yourself before you post it here.  Remember, if you post it here, people may use it against you.

[NJLiberty]

I don't see as Jesse did anything wrong here. Yes, he could have walked away or gone into his house, but if you don't deal with the problem today it won't go away by itself. The next time they are just going to be emboldened because they know he "ran away" the first time. At what point is enough enough and they need to be dealt with? I think he made the right decision in attempting to be reasonable with them, and am glad he had the gun to prevent his getting hurt. Walking away and doing nothing doesn't deter people from this behavior. It only encourages it. I know we tell kids to walk away from bullies or ignore them, but I have never seen an example where that worked. It only encourages them to push the envelope farther the next time knowing there will be no repercussions.

Why should Jesse have to yield to his neighbors? Why should he have to go inside, or walk on the other side of the street, or otherwise accommodate these people when he has done nothing to them? If they instigate something then he needs to deal with it, and he did in the manner he thought best at the time. Thankfully he didn't have to shoot one of them. Perhaps next time they will think twice about picking on him or the next person who comes along they don't care for. I don't really understand why Kat's trying to make them out to be sympathetic characters, or why she is trying to make them into the victims here.

Pacifism is a beautiful concept. It is childlike in its innocence. In a perfect world we could all be that way, but the world is far from perfect and never will be. It isn't human nature to be a pacifist. For those who want to try to live that way, that's great, but I can think of a ton of situations where pacifism is only going to help you get robbed, raped, murdered, etc. At that point I hope you have a neighbor or friend who is willing to do what your philosophy won't allow you to, and defend you from those who would harm you.

As far as carrying a hammer goes, nails are still just nails. I fully support Kat's right to put pen to paper, but I think it would have been more fair to Jesse to leave him out of it. There was no need to bring him into her anti-carry piece except to try and make him look bad. If she isn't comfortable carrying a gun and doesn't like the emotional baggage that she feels when she is carrying, then so be it. Don't assume that is a common experience. Not everyone is suddenly in the Old West and gets "gun muscles" just because they are wearing a firearm.

I know a lot of people who would never own a gun, for a variety of reasons, but I would never presume to belittle them because of their choice. If Kat wants to write about her own experiences with carrying, and how it made her feel, and how she currently feels about it, so be it. It just seems juvenile to me to write something which primarily serves as a hatchet job.

George

[Tom Sawyer]

Hind sight being 20/20 and all...

Maybe best to walk away from words, although I can see wanting to defend your right to be left alone.

Walking up to a group of belligerents, maybe not the best action, especially within arms reach, they could have gotten hold of the gun.

[Giggan]

I'm kinda trying to stay out it, but I felt this point need be made.

I've never been so drunk that I wouldn't realize that starting a fight with an armed man is a death wish. The assumption you have to make when someone attacks you who knows you are armed is that their intention is to kill you. Perhaps they would not make such a decision sober, but it isn't like when you're drunk you automatically lose all common sense. If they are that incredibly reckless, I don't see them lasting long in the gene pool as it is.

I hate to use a socialist word, but I felt the piece was a little 'exploitative', it took advantage of Jesse's situation. As said, hindsight's 20/20. I'm not sure whether or not I would have gone near them, but I never would expect a group of drunks to try to jump an armed person for any reason. Is it just me, or is it common sense that you don't pick fights with armed people, sober or otherwise?

Perhaps there was more than alcohol in them? Some stimulants can make you feel invincible.

[John Shaw]

*chime*

Carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is clumsy and dangerous to others.

Racking your slide like you're some sort of action movie dude... Not too good. Your increased your chances of accidentally shooting someone manifold.

Dangerous and dumb.

Also, brandishing is really really really dumb. If your life is in danger, there is ONE movement, and that is to draw and fire. If you're pulling a gun and waving it around, expect to get shot and expect to frigging deserve it. To draw is to intend to shoot.

They already knew you had a gun. That was the point of the confrontation. Drawing it did nothing to help you.

Also, gotta say it... Talking to a cop and explaining in great detail how you brandished? Not so bright. Also, what does your military experience have to do with anything? You're not suggesting, anarchojesse, that the military trains people sufficient gun safety and handling for civilian purposes, are you? Why plea competence based on probably two weeks of compressed training centered around a battlefield?

No, no, no.

Special Note: I say this as a person who has fired somewhere between 250-1000 rounds a week for the last 14 years or so, and has trained people in various firearms courses for about eight years.

Bah on Jesse and his recklessness.

As for never carrying a gun at all, or the suggestion that a gun makes a person cocky, well, people are individuals. Take some random person, put a gun in their hand and pat them on the behind, and sure, you get a more dangerous person.

That's not the same as a person who takes a real interest in the subject. You, know, a member of the gun culture, say. The least likely person in the room to throw a punch is the black belt, usually. The discipline comes with the (Proper) training.

Add onto that layer a person who ascribes to the NAP, and you've got another level of safety as well.