I Will Be Boycotting the NHUnderground Forums

[littlehawk]

Carrying a weapon does not always make a person powerful. If a person feels that way, he or she has not been educated about proper gun use and the responsibilities that entail.

My biggest problem with this incident is Mrs Kanning printing an opinionated article that would have or could still have created a bad situation for Mr. Jesse by opening the doors for the LEO's to step in. I thought this is what freestaters are trying to avoid; unjustified FORCE by thugs.

Is this what friends are for? ( I am assuming you guys are (were) friends.
I do not ridicule someone who chooses not to carry. Its their choice and I respect their freedom to choose.
I believe free people have a right to carry a weapon and others have a right to not carry a weapon. But more importantly shouldn't the individuals decisions be respected by all parties? It appears to me that Jesse is being wrongfully judged and reprimanded for his exercise in freedom, which in this case (and IMO) he had the right to defend himself.

Jesse, if you carry, its my opinion to keep it cocked and locked. There could be a situation where you wouldn't have time or be physcially able to rack your iron.

Littlehawk

[anthonybpugh]

With what little information I have this is my assessment of the situation.

when those guys were calling Jesse names and being obnoxious, what they were doing was pushing his buttons trying to see what his reaction would be.  What people do when they have the intent on committing violence is to first test their potential victim.  They do things such as call names, call them over and such.  In spite of the fact that Jesse has a gun, his reaction probably led these people to believe that Jesse was gutless and when things would actually go down, that Jesse would hesitate in using violence.  They might have also figured that they could have overpowered Jesse if he tried to use the gun.  Again because Jesse most likely conveyed hesitancy and indecisiveness.   

it is also possible that their obnoxious behavior was more of a show for each other. 

When Jesse went over to confront them, what he did was put them in an awkward situation.  To acquiesce to Jesse's request would have made them look like punks.  They were left with little options to ignore him, agree with Jesse and look like bitches or take the face saving way and pound Jesse into the dirt. 

[leetninja]

Carrying a gun without a round in the chamber is clumsy and dangerous to others.

What makes that true?  I personally do not like to carry with a round in the chamber - more of a fear of accidental discharge i suppose but impossible to accidentally discharge if there is no round in the chamber.

Racking your slide like you're some sort of action movie dude... Not too good. Your increased your chances of accidentally shooting someone manifold.

if carrying without a round in chamber you have to rack it ... how would racking the weapon = accidental shooting of someone?  guns are designed to not fire when racked. 

Also, brandishing is really really really dumb. If your life is in danger, there is ONE movement, and that is to draw and fire. If you're pulling a gun and waving it around, expect to get shot and expect to frigging deserve it. To draw is to intend to shoot.

I disagree.  A firearm in certain and most situations can be used to diffuse a hostile situation.  once it is out there are only a couple of outcomes - you draw and diffuse or you draw and shoot ...

They already knew you had a gun. That was the point of the confrontation. Drawing it did nothing to help you.

it made them have a nice tall glass of STFU didnt it?  I would call that diffusing the situation.  Sure he could have just ran away but it seems like that wasnt an option at the time.  he was being held by presumably the arm that he doesnt draw with ... wait now that im thinking of this ... if jesse was being held by one guy by his arm how was he able to draw and rack!?

Also, gotta say it... Talking to a cop and explaining in great detail how you brandished? Not so bright.

I agree - if you say that you pulled and didnt fire i have learned that they could possibly charge you with criminal threatening if they want to be jackasses ... which they usually seem to take sick and twisted pleasure in doing.  in case you were wondering - if convicted - which you normally would be - you face jail time and a felony conviction - meaning no more guns for you.  EVER.

[John Shaw]

In the area of Keene, you're very unlikely to have to actually use it. So unlikely that you're more likely to accidentally discharge from the gun falling or from fidgeting around with it every time you have to cock and lock it. You can do whatever you want, but it's not like carrying a cocked and locked MAC-11 on a drawstring is a good idea. Mechanical failure happens.

*Sigh*

No.

1. If your gun isn't ready to shoot, there's no reason to have a gun other than to intimidate people.
2. Was he carrying a "Cocked and locked" MAC-11 on a drawstring? Doubtful.
3. You even clearly mentioned the problem with having an unchambered gun. Do you think you are more likely to have a negligent discharge while chambering a gun with it aimed in a safe direction in the privacy of your own home, or in the middle of a possibly violent confrontation?

If you have a carry gun, you leave it loaded and ready to fire at all times. If you're afraid of fat fingering it, keep it in the holster. Of course, a DA/SA semiauto would solve half of the problem, but everyone loves GLOCKs, and doesn't listen to me anyway about that.

Chamber it. If you're worried about fat fingering, get a DA/SA gun with a decocker. The first trigger pull is usually around ten pounds and is nearly impossible to "clumsy do".

Of course, I don't carry openly anyway, because I'm not interested in advertising. If Jesse were carrying concealed, no one would have given him any crap in the first place. Sure, he has the right to do whatever he wants, but why antagonize people? Oh... Forgot my audience.  

[anthonybpugh]

John Shaw,  I feel your pain and frustration.  People don't want to listen to experience.   

[John Shaw]

What makes that true?  I personally do not like to carry with a round in the chamber - more of a fear of accidental discharge i suppose but impossible to accidentally discharge if there is no round in the chamber.

Have you ever had to draw, cock, and fire under real stress? Too complicated a series of actions to develop as muscle memory. Draw to sight picture and fire. Two actions. Pull, reach with off hand, pull slide, sight picture, fire. Five actions.

This is bad. Not only that, but you are making the assumption that you're gonna have both hands available in the middle of being attacked. How can you be sure of this? What do you do if someone grabs you by your off hand? Answer: Get beat up or killed.

if carrying without a round in chamber you have to rack it ... how would racking the weapon = accidental shooting of someone?  guns are designed to not fire when racked.  

This is just not so. It depends almost entirely on the particular gun. Chambering a round is a critical event with any gun, risk-wise. 90+% of ND's happen during round cycling.

I disagree.  A firearm in certain and most situations can be used to diffuse a hostile situation.  once it is out there are only a couple of outcomes - you draw and diffuse or you draw and shoot ...

Then you have never taken a basic firearms safety course. This is guns 101, man. Draw and fire.

  1. All guns are always loaded (until you establish whether they are or not).
  2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. Keep your gun pointed in a safe direction at all times: on the range, at home, loading, or unloading.
  3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target (and you are ready to shoot).
  4. Be sure of your target. Know what it is, what is in line with it and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you haven't positively identified.

it made them have a nice tall glass of STFU didnt it?  I would call that diffusing the situation.  Sure he could have just ran away but it seems like that wasnt an option at the time.  he was being held by presumably the arm that he doesnt draw with ... wait now that im thinking of this ... if jesse was being held by one guy by his arm how was he able to draw and rack!?

1. If your goal is to shut people up who disagree with you, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun.
2. He didn't diffuse anything. The police showed up.
3. i.r. "ran away" - He could have not walked over there and confronted a bunch of drunks in the first place. Period.
4. He wouldn't have been being grabbed by the arm if he wasn't over there.
5. Yes, the story smells a bit of bullshit. If his arm were being held, he'd not be able to rack it, right? Remember what you said about chambering? Yeah.

I'm not trying to antagonize you or anything, I'm just pointing out some facts here.

Drawing a gun (I hope you never have to) in defense has an optimal way, and everything else is a non optimal way.

While facing the opponent, you reach, draw while pivoting your body so that your side is facing your opponent, continuing to raise the weapon, make a sight picture and fire. That's it. Everything else you can possibly do (unless you have no other choice) increases the risk of an innocent someone being needlessly harmed.

[John Shaw]

John Shaw,  I feel your pain and frustration.  People don't want to listen to experience.   

From what I understand, there are a lot of very well trained gun people in NH and no one is paying them to learn this crap. For a bunch of free market people, I've never seen a bigger group of freeloaders.

Pony up some cash and learn to use a gun properly. Sheesh.

Of course, the problem is, is that the irresponsible gun people are irresponsible because they think they already know everything, so I might be pissing into the wind, here...

[Jitgos]

Also, brandishing is really really really dumb. If your life is in danger, there is ONE movement, and that is to draw and fire. If you're pulling a gun and waving it around, expect to get shot and expect to frigging deserve it. To draw is to intend to shoot.

They already knew you had a gun. That was the point of the confrontation. Drawing it did nothing to help you.

So you shouldn't ever draw and not shoot? He did intend to shoot, but drawing it did enough to stop the confrontation.

It didn't do anything to help him?? When it was holstered he was about to be punched. He drew it and he wasn't punched. Is that somehow not helping defend himself and stopping the violence from escalating? I agree that it shouldn't be done willy-nilly, but from the reported accounts his physical being and possibly life were in imminent danger.

So, if I put your statements together correctly, you seem to be saying it would have been better for him to either take a beating or to have drawn and shot the guy. That is crazy.

[leetninja]

I fortunately havent had to draw, cock, and fire under real stress.  simulated situations are different no matter what.  i like to think i can do it quickly enough but there are always the unfactorable circumstances.

I understand that if i didnt have a free hand i would essentially be in a bad situation.

I have taken safety and traianing courses.  i understand that it is the general consesnsu that its draw and fire no matter what i just dont see it that way.  if someone is coming at you and you draw and they stop in their tracks and run the other way - why must you then fire?

1. If your goal is to shut people up who disagree with you, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun.

agreed.  that is not why i carry.  i hope it isnt why jesse or anyone else here carries. 

2. He didn't diffuse anything. The police showed up.

i thought they showed up later on and that he had basically pulled etc and then drove away because they shut up - maybe i read it wrong whatever.

5. Yes, the story smells a bit of bullshit. If his arm were being held, he'd not be able to rack it, right? Remember what you said about chambering? Yeah.

i literally wrote what i said in line without editing it.  i think something is very off with the story.  to the point where i will just ask jesse:  seriously how did you draw, rack, and aim if you were being held by one arm by someone? 

I'm not trying to antagonize you or anything, I'm just pointing out some facts here.

no worries.  its appreciated.


i was in a situation and maybe you can tell me what you think of how i handled it?

basically:  i caught some kids trying to burn down a house - i intervened from a distance vocally - they started coming at me saying they were going to kick my ass etc - they were all of 15-18 yrs old - i simply showed them that i was carrying my weapon (didnt draw) and said "not a good idea"  to be honest if they had kept coming they wouldnt have received a second warning.

now i could have drawn and they would have run home to mommy but i wouldnt have had to fire.  the mere presence of a gun immediately de-escalated that particular part of the situation.

should i have done something else?

[John Shaw]

So you shouldn't ever draw and not shoot?

That's exactly right. You don't draw unless you plan to fire. Yes.

He did intend to shoot, but drawing it did enough to stop the confrontation.

Again, there wasn't a confrontation at all until he walked over there. It was just asinine heckling.

It didn't do anything to help him??

The point isn't whether or not it helped him. The point is that he put people at risk when he wasn't prepared to follow through. None of those dudes deserved to die. He shouldn't have drawn his gun.

When it was holstered he was about to be punched. He drew it and he wasn't punched.

So? He walked into a situation where he knew people were going to start a confrontation. They yelled at him when he drove by or whatever. There was no reason to go over there other than to have a confrontation, and he did so, knowing that this was a bunch of drunken riff raff.

Is that somehow not helping defend himself and stopping the violence from escalating?

No, because some assholes yelled at him and he decided to walk over there openly carrying a gun and confront them. He knew exactly what was going to happen and he was controlling every event in the situation, because he obviously had the power advantage. The dude was packing.

I agree that it shouldn't be done willy-nilly, but from the reported accounts his physical being and possibly life were in imminent danger.

Only because he went over there to talk a bunch of shit at some useless, mentally impaired meatbags.

So, if I put your statements together correctly, you seem to be saying it would have been better for him to either take a beating or to have drawn and shot the guy. That is crazy.

No. No it isn't. I'd rather give up a tooth or two than have to kill a human being, with a lifetime of their own experiences. Of course, I'd have the self control not to go over and start a fuss with a bunch of douchbags.

And yeah, if I draw, someone is gonna have a hole in them. There's no in between. The in between is for TV shows. If you believe you are under the imminent threat of death, you draw and fire until the threat is stopped. If he want's some in between solution to the problem, he should probably get a tazer or pepper spray.*

Guns aren't a negotiation tool. They are for killing people.



EDIT: The are exceptions for every rule. I had to get a bum off of my property after removing him three days in a row, once. The third day I walked into my shed with a shotgun over my shoulder to make things as clear as possible. He wasn't threatening me in any way, though. That was on the privacy of my own property, and with full knowledge that I'd not be using it. It was also never drawn and aimed.

[Jitgos]

I have no idea how or the best way to format this for readability so I just wrote in maroon.

So you shouldn't ever draw and not shoot?

That's exactly right. You don't draw unless you plan to fire. Yes.

He did plan to fire, but apparently in the second it took for him to draw the bully wised up. Should he have still shot him on the principal that if you draw you should fire?

He did intend to shoot, but drawing it did enough to stop the confrontation.

Again, there wasn't a confrontation at all until he walked over there. It was just asinine heckling.

So problem is him going over there.

It didn't do anything to help him??

The point isn't whether or not it helped him. The point is that he put people at risk when he wasn't prepared to follow through. None of those dudes deserved to die. He shouldn't have drawn his gun.

You're the one who stated it didn't help him so I figured that was a "point" you were making. He was prepared to follow through and if someone is threatening imminent physical harm they may very well deserve to be shot. It's the last thing in the world I would ever want to do, but it may be necessary. Again you say he shouldn't have drawn his gun. So he should have taken a beating I guess. It seems your real problem is that he walked over there in the first place and sense you believe that was wrong everything else that followed must have been wrong too.

When it was holstered he was about to be punched. He drew it and he wasn't punched.

So? He walked into a situation where he knew people were going to start a confrontation. They yelled at him when he drove by or whatever. There was no reason to go over there other than to have a confrontation, and he did so, knowing that this was a bunch of drunken riff raff.

Once again your problem is that he walked over there. It obviously helped him to draw the gun.

Is that somehow not helping defend himself and stopping the violence from escalating?

No, because some assholes yelled at him and he decided to walk over there openly carrying a gun and confront them. He knew exactly what was going to happen and he was controlling every event in the situation, because he obviously had the power advantage. The dude was packing.

Read above.

I agree that it shouldn't be done willy-nilly, but from the reported accounts his physical being and possibly life were in imminent danger.

Only because he went over there to talk a bunch of shit at some useless, mentally impaired meatbags.

Read above.

So, if I put your statements together correctly, you seem to be saying it would have been better for him to either take a beating or to have drawn and shot the guy. That is crazy.

No. No it isn't. I'd rather give up a tooth or two than have to kill a human being, with a lifetime of their own experiences. Of course, I'd have the self control not to go over and start a fuss with a bunch of douchbags.

And yeah, if I draw, someone is gonna have a hole in them. There's no in between. The in between is for TV shows. If you believe you are under the imminent threat of death, you draw and fire until the threat is stopped. If he want's some in between solution to the problem, he should probably get a tazer or pepper spray.*

Guns aren't a negotiation tool. They are for killing people.

So he should carry a pepper spray for when small people are about to punch him, a tazer for when large people are about to punch him, and a gun for those situations when death is imminent? Sounds impractical to me.

EDIT: The are exceptions for every rule. I had to get a bum off of my property after removing him three days in a row, once. The third day I walked into my shed with a shotgun over my shoulder to make things as clear as possible. He wasn't threatening me in any way, though. That was on the privacy of my own property, and with full knowledge that I'd not be using it. It was also never drawn and aimed.

[littlehawk]

Mr. Shaw, I have to disagree with you personal preferences and usage of a weapon.
This is probably why gals like Mrs. Kat fear gun owners.

IMO, its not a black and white decision. We are talking about the serious potential for taking a persons life. In many cases, a drawn weapon does not have to be fired to be effective in diffusing a situation. I'd also like to add that every encounter is different and it must be treated as such. There are no hard, fast rules nor is it black and white when it comes to practicing self defense. Killing someone stays with the shooter the rest of his or her life. For many, it's a hard reality after the smokes clears.

I do not want to be lumped into one big box where other people consider me some type of lunatic
wildwest gunslinger that shoots anyone who looks at them the wrong way. Mr. John, although I respect your right to make your own choices, I strongly disagree with them and your views are much too extreme for me.

I will say this; If a person draws a weapon, he or she better be prepared to fire it or they shouldn't be carrying it.  BUT  it should only be fired as a last resort, not first. (or course there are situations where this won't always apply)  

And now to reverse my thinking a bit (and my support), I have to agree with Mrs. Kat as I would fear hanging around with a guy like you. I could be wrong (and if so, I apologize) but I have made my assumption and filed you into the "itchy-finger' and "trigger-happy" catagories. I know a few locals here who have similar views. Mix in a few brewskis and its not always pleasant being around them.

Back on topic a bit more, I do hope Jesse returns. He appears to be good for your folks in NH.
And IMO an armed weapon can be a deterrant without having to use it.
BTW, I never open carry as I think it is way too provocative, especially in a day and age when people associate gun carriers as outlaws. That is sad, but it IS the reality. Open carrying also shows your ace in the hole. I don't want anyone knowing, but hey, thats just me.  

Littlehawk

[John Shaw]

He did plan to fire, but apparently in the second it took for him to draw the bully wised up. Should he have still shot him on the principal that if you draw you should fire?

Again, you obviously haven't drawn a lot of guns. A draw and fire is a draw and fire. A gun isn't a negotiating tactic.

So the problem is him going over there.

Pretty much.

You're the one who stated it didn't help him so I figured that was a "point" you were making.

No. The point I was originally making is about gun safety, not his actions. He is an irresponsible person with a gun. I have also heard through the grapevine that he's dropped a loaded and chambered gun in front of witnesses. And I wasn't making a "Point", I was making a point.

He was prepared to follow through and if someone is threatening imminent physical harm they may very well deserve to be shot.

May well <> Definitely does

He went over there and picked a fight with people who called him names. That is juvenile.

It's the last thing in the world I would ever want to do, but it may be necessary.

The entire confrontation was unnecessary.

Again you say he shouldn't have drawn his gun.

Yup.

So he should have taken a beating I guess.

Knock off the false dichotomies.

<<<Not new to debate.

It seems your real problem is that he walked over there in the first place and sense you believe that was wrong everything else that followed must have been wrong too.

Lol, another one. No, I didn't package deal.

Starting shit with people = Bad.

Poor and dangerous gun handling = Bad.

Please, learn more about gun safety. Seriously.

[John Shaw]

Mr. Shaw, I have to disagree with you personal preferences and usage of a weapon.
This is probably why gals like Mrs. Kat fear gun owners.

IMO, its not a black and white decision. We are talking about the serious potential for taking a persons life. In many cases, a drawn weapon does not have to be fired to be effective in diffusing a situation. I'd also like to add that every encounter is different and it must be treated as such. There are no hard, fast rules nor is it black and white when it comes to practicing self defense. Killing someone stays with the shooter the rest of his or her life. For many, it's a hard reality after the smokes clears.

I do not want to be lumped into one big box where other people consider me some type of lunatic
wildwest gunslinger that shoots anyone who looks at them the wrong way. Mr. John, although I respect your right to make your own choices, I strongly disagree with them and your views are much too extreme for me.

I will say this; If a person draws a weapon, he or she better be prepared to fire it or they shouldn't be carrying it.  BUT  it should only be fired as a last resort, not first. (or course there are situations where this won't always apply)  

And now to reverse my thinking a bit (and my support), I have to agree with Mrs. Kat as I would fear hanging around with a guy like you. I could be wrong (and if so, I apologize) but I have made my assumption and filed you into the "itchy-finger' and "trigger-happy" catagories. I know a few locals here who have similar views. Mix in a few brewskis and its not always pleasant being around them.

Back on topic a bit more, I do hope Jesse returns. He appears to be good for your folks in NH.
And IMO an armed weapon can be a deterrant without having to use it.
BTW, I never open carry as I think it is way too provocative, especially in a day and age when people associate gun carriers as outlaws. That is sad, but it IS the reality. Open carrying also shows your ace in the hole. I don't want anyone knowing, but hey, thats just me.  

Littlehawk

You obviously haven't read everything I've said in this thread. I never once said that firing on someone is the first course of action you should take. I even said, specifially, that I'd rather lose a couple teeth than have to kill someone. Please go back and read more thoroughly before you comment. Or don't. Whatever.

You decide that you need to fire a gun. THEN you pull it out. You don't draw a gun without intent. THAT is the dangerous act.

EDIT: I am very specifically, proclaiming loudly, that you should never let a situation get to the point of violence, ever. If you can't stop that from happening, you wait until you are as certain as you can be that you will DIE unless you defend yourself, and then you draw and fire until you are as certain as you can be that you are safe again.

[John Shaw]

Watch that karma dive.

*sigh*

I'll come back some other time.