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"Let them march all they want, as long as they pay their taxes."  --Alexander Haig

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Author Topic: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory  (Read 2244 times)

Tom Sawyer

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Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« on: March 22, 2016, 02:18 PM NHFT »

Joël Valenzuela wrote a good piece over on his blog http://thedesertlynx.com
Boulevard of Broken Porcs

Quote
...several people (I hesitate to say many) have lost their minds over Mr. Freeman’s on-paper departure, declaring the movement dead, the FSP a tyranny, and Ian a martyr bleeding out on his cross so that the sins of Keene may be forgiven.

What a train wreck some seem to want to turn this into.

Here the movement is at it's most significant milestone so far, 20k achieved. Yet there is a malignancy that could grow to do real damage to all our efforts. It's not like there aren't plenty of positive directions to put our attention.

Let's not cut off our nose to spite our face here...

I've seen it happen before in other organizations "Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."
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KBCraig

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2016, 03:08 PM NHFT »

So many of those declaring the FSP "dead" have never even heard of Lauren Canario or Mike Fisher. Most are barely aware of the Kannings, and Dave Ridley is just an anachronistic curiosity to them.

Those who are boycotting PorcFest because "it will never be the same!", have no idea that it wasn't always an orgiastic festival of drugs and sex.

I'm not mad at them, just curious why they're so angry at those of us who don't really want to socialize with them.
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Jim Johnson

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2016, 03:14 PM NHFT »


What a train wreck some seem to want to turn this into.


Yes... exactly.


 
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Jim Johnson

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2016, 03:22 PM NHFT »

So many of those declaring the FSP "dead" have never even heard of Lauren Canario or Mike Fisher. Most are barely aware of the Kannings, and Dave Ridley is just an anachronistic curiosity to them.

Those who are boycotting PorcFest because "it will never be the same!", have no idea that it wasn't always an orgiastic festival of drugs and sex.

I'm not mad at them, just curious why they're so angry at those of us who .

If Porcfest is "an orgiastic festival of drugs and sex" and you "don't really want to socialize with them" why did you go?

......and your assessment of Porcfest is completely different than anything I've seen there.
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Jay

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2016, 03:43 PM NHFT »

Lots of people have just had their reality shattered...that libertarians can be just as fucked up in the head as statists, whatever side you want to put that label on. How can that not result in at least a temporary mess?
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2016, 05:45 PM NHFT »

I good friend that has been involved in libertarian efforts since the late 60's once told me, in response to wondering why the LP didn't run the same presidential candidate in subsequent elections. He said that the cause should be bigger than one person, not become a cult of personality. His logic was that one person might fail the movement and discredit it. As it turned out with Harry Browne, whose controversial second campaign seemed to have badly damaged the LP.
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Free libertarian

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2016, 06:01 PM NHFT »

  Thought provoking article.   Thanks for posting it here, Tom Sawyer.     
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Jay

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2016, 06:11 PM NHFT »

He said that the cause should be bigger than one person, not become a cult of personality.

Are "we" aiming for collectively empowered freedom, or self-empowerment?

I found this article by Menno Troyer last week. Made me view the situation in a new light:

https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2012/09/10/beware-of-the-false-paths-to-freedom.html
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Jim Johnson

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2016, 06:49 PM NHFT »

He said that the cause should be bigger than one person, not become a cult of personality.

Are "we" aiming for collectively empowered freedom, or self-empowerment?

I found this article by Menno Troyer last week. Made me view the situation in a new light:

https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2012/09/10/beware-of-the-false-paths-to-freedom.html

That is a good article.
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Tom Sawyer

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2016, 06:49 PM NHFT »

He said that the cause should be bigger than one person, not become a cult of personality.

Are "we" aiming for collectively empowered freedom, or self-empowerment?

I found this article by Menno Troyer last week. Made me view the situation in a new light:

https://www.dollarvigilante.com/blog/2012/09/10/beware-of-the-false-paths-to-freedom.html

Not sure that I agree with much of what he said.

The problem is if people voluntarily decide to work together for their common goals vs being compelled to.

Most people that focus so much on their individualism are often incapable of playing on a team. It's not that they have necessarily found a better path. Most of the best things in this life involve bending some for the common goals that you share. Everything from marriage to running a business.
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Jim Johnson

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2016, 06:56 PM NHFT »

I'm pretty sure that the failure in this has to do the restriction of Ian's speech. He was advocating something that a few people, rightfully or wrongful, find extraordinarily offensive.

...but that's it. If you want to restrict speech, you have absolutely no good reason to be anywhere near a Liberty Movement.
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blackie

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 07:06 PM NHFT »

The FSP hasn't changed, it has always been like that. Racists are a good example. Libertarian racists aren't allowed.




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Jim Johnson

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2016, 07:18 PM NHFT »

I agree.
I can't tell a racist until he starts sounding stupid.
I don't want to be around that guy, but let him talk so I can know the people around him.
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Jay

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2016, 07:30 PM NHFT »

Most people that focus so much on their individualism are often incapable of playing on a team.

Good point. But I've heard many people say in da moovement (and my experience as well) that they've been frustrated in working in teams their entire lives, usually having to do most or all of the work when they get involved. Whether it's higher intelligence, laziness of others, or willingness to volunteer/not be as risk adverse. It might be hard to transition to working with others for a lot of those folks because of the past.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2016, 07:31 PM NHFT »

very good posts from all of you
It is funny how some think the sky is falling because of the usual FSP board decisions. They turned on Jim and Lauren in their hour of need (just didn't have any official way to do it). They voted 3-4 to kick me out of the FSP.
Ian is not saying the world is ending .... so why do some of his supporters think so?

The government is going to continue to put a lot of pressure on us. We need to help each other in those though times.
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