actually doing nothing

[tracysaboe]

I'll need to look for it again.

I've got to do something about all the anger and deprression I feel about my situation as a result of the government.

Tracy

[CNHT]

I'll need to look for it again.

I've got to do something about all the anger and deprression I feel about my situation as a result of the government.

Tracy

OMG if that doesn't sound like  a socialist I don't know what! You are blaming the gov't for your depression and anger? Yet you won't do anything about it? Gimme a break!

[Caleb]

My guess is that he's blaming them because of WHAT THEY DO, not because of what they aren't doing for him.  There's a critical difference.  We all get overwhelmed sometimes when you think about how powerful they are.  Sometimes we all need a pick-me-up.  Tracy is about as far from a socialist as you get.

My two cents anyway.

Caleb

[Fluff and Stuff]

Remember the original post, folks.  Our job is to build up a pool of grass roots activists, swing voters, donors, and future candidates.  All that matters is swinging votes.  The rest is b---shit.

I don't agree with you, Max.  For example, I think starting a pro-liberty paper or radio show is very important.

Talk just wastes time, unless it helps the FSP.

It does other things.  Only Dada is able to be an activist 24 hours a day   The rest of us have to have friends and fun sometime.

We only have those rights we are willing to fight for.  Protesting, in my experience, does little good at best, and harms these causes at worst.

Please explain you experience.  I have taken part in several protests.  For example, in TN, we had a month+ long protest that included 1000s of people to stop the creation of a state income tax on wages.  We worked very hard.  Yes, taxes did go up more than they ever have in history but nothing close to what the Republicans and Democrats in charge of TN wanted.  We prevented the income tax and saved the people of TN 200,000,000 - 400,000,000 per year.  That protest made a big difference for freedom.  It also made sure that the next Gov. of TN would not vote for an income tax.  In fact, he kicked 10000s of health adults off of government healthcare and that is saving the people of TN millions of more dollars every year.

[tracysaboe]

My guess is that he's blaming them because of WHAT THEY DO, not because of what they aren't doing for him.  There's a critical difference.  We all get overwhelmed sometimes when you think about how powerful they are.  Sometimes we all need a pick-me-up.  Tracy is about as far from a socialist as you get.

My two cents anyway.

Caleb

Thank you Caleb. 

Because of the government half of my hard earned money is taken away from me at gun point.

Because of the government the money I DO get to keep is only worth about half as much as it would be otherwise. (Largely because of tarrifs, and regulations, and subsidiese, etc.)

Because of the government my employer is only able to give me about half of what they would be able to if it weren't for regulations. (If you count there half of social security, the cost of compliance w/ OSHA, EPA, FCC, Work-men's comp and the meriad of other regulations out there employers spend is between 5-8 Dollars an hour per employee.

So, what does that mean.

I'd more then likely be making at least $5 per hour more then what i'm already making if it weren't for the government. So would my wife.

Id'd be able to keep ALL of that raise plus what I'm making. So, I'd make AT LEAST $5 more per hour -- instead of $11 I'd be making around $16. Plus I'd be able to keep all of it instead of like now where out of the $11 I do make I only get to keep about $5.

I'd be making the equivalent of 3 times as much money as I'm making now Plus it would go twice as far -- so really I'd be about 6 times wealthier.

I'd have my house paid off by now free and clear and be with you guys in NH already. -- of course in that senario their wouldn't be any NEED for a Free STate Project now would there.

On top of that, more then likely I wouldn't have half the debt I do have. This society of paying 30 year mortgages for a home is largely a direct result of easy money policies w/ the federal government.  Of course, i'm probably double counting if I talk about that -- just in general b/c land and housing would be able half the price it is today w/ out building code regulations, zoneing restrictions, government property etc. -- that's part of my "stuff would be half the price w/o government."

Anyway, Instead of Amy and I working the equivalent of 3 full-time jobs between the two of us, we'd only need to work 1, AND we'd be twice as wealthy as we are today.

So CNHT Excuse me if that makes me a bit ANGRY at the government and Excuse me if I strugle w/ depression from time to time b/c of these money issues.  Once we get all this debt out from over our head I'll feel better. But it'd sure be a lot easier to make a dent in it if I wasn't forking over $1,700 to the federal Maffia this year!

Tracy

[Fluff and Stuff]

...I'd be making the equivalent of 3 times as much money as I'm making now Plus it would go twice as far -- so really I'd be about 6 times wealthier.
...
Of course, i'm probably double counting if I talk about that -- just in general b/c land and housing would be able half the price it is today w/ out building code regulations, zoneing restrictions, government property etc. -- that's part of my "stuff would be half the price w/o government."

Land would cost much more if the average person were 6x as wealthy.

[tracysaboe]

w/o 30 year loans and cheep cheep interest rates that are made possible largely only because of the Federal Researve I kind-of doubt that. I reason land is so expensive now is because w/ cheep interest rates, people can afford to spend 3 times as much as they otherwise would. Plus with all the government land becoming privatley owned or unclaimed terrirory land prices would almost get cut in half. Plus take away zoning restrictions, it would even be cheeper. Now, the fact that people are 6 times wealthier might counteract that those forces -- but I seriously doubt land would be any more expensive then it is right now.

The marketplace and competition tends to push prices down not push them up.

Tracy

[Fluff and Stuff]

The marketplace and competition tends to push prices down not push them up.

Tracy

I don't think you understate property. For example, in a fucking nice area, it may cost $300,000 per acre but only $500 per acre in crap land.  The government is not the main force in property prices.  It is all simple economics

You would understand this if you lived in a large metro area instead of SD 

[tracysaboe]

No, I understand that.

But I also know that easy money policies (thereby pushing interest rates down so law that the payment for a $100,000 house ends up being the same as what in a free market w/ natural interest rates the payment for a $50,000 house w/ be), government owned land (Artificially decreasing the supply), Farm subsidies (artificially increasing demand), Zoning (Again, artificially decreasing thee supply)  , Building regulations (increasing costs of building and artifically decreasing the supply of skilled laborors w/ licenses.)  play a huge part as well.

If interest rates were at market levels (which one can really own guess at but we know they'd be a lot higher then the current easy money policy regime.) the interest rate on the house I purchase would likely have been 10% or 11% instead of %5.9 But my payments would have been the same -- because most people purchase houses based on what payments they can afford not the actual price of the house so that's what the market clear is largely based on. A $25,000 house w/ an 11% interest rate is close to the same payments as a $50,000 house w/ a 5.5 interest rate. (This is just an example -- not actual figures, I didn't take the time to do the actual math.)

But the $25,000 house if you accelerate $1,500 a month on over an about your payments you'll pay it off a lot faster then a $50,000 house that you accelerate $1,500/month on.

Interest rates have a LOT to do w/ the cost of houseing. This wouldn't be the case of the Feds didn't control the money supply and interest rates.

Tracy

[maxxoccupancy]

None of this flaming has made us one bit freer.

In last year's Alderman and school board races, we had perhaps five races that came down to 30 votes or less.  There are far more such races in the State Legislature.  Critical issues in the house were decided by 3, 6, and one vote for certain bills.  The vast majority of voters do not know what is going on--we do.  Some of our state reps have a 93% voting record, while others have 13% voting records.

I could choose to protest and burn flags, but those arrogant s--- -- bitches don't g--- a shit.  They could care less.  The only thing that the Eastern Establishment understands is people like Ron Paul saying things on national television that they don't want the American people hearing.

In the General Court, our school boards, and cities across NH, there are very close elections and close votes.  What are people doing moving to NH who don't even vote.  "All politicians are parasites," is b---shit.  Nature is full of healthy and unhealthy specimens.  We are to act as nature, occasionally culling the odd mutant who doesn't support liberty.  Those who maintain F voting records need to know that their days are numbered.

I just happen to think that Manchester is the best place for active Porcupines to have an effect.  Our city government overseas 10% of the state's population, while we elect 10% of the state reps, including about 20% of the state reps we want to get rid of.  The average state rep holds about 41% with NHLA, while Manchester reps are hovering around 30%.

It's hard to go to our legislators in committee to feel respect for a few hundred volunteers--half of whom are non-voters, and won't lift a finger to help put them out of office.  We have A LOT of close votes, and we have a lot of FSPers who have made the move 2,000 miles across a continent to burn a UN flag, while authoritarians snicker at what they're getting away with in our Legislature.

Don't I have a right to be angry?  GOYAA-Vote

--Max

[Russell Kanning]

We have a responsibility as Americans to fight for our country.  We serve in the military, on jury duty, in neighborhood watch programs... we pledge allegiance to the flag.  We owe a civil obligation to vote responsibily.

I don't feel any of those obligations. I owe nothing to an evil government. I am declaring myself independent of these evil systems.
Maybe we are working toward opposing ends ..... I am comfortable with that. I am working toward a voluntary society, where noone is forced to do anything.

[Russell Kanning]

I've got to do something about all the anger and deprression I feel about my situation as a result of the government.

I used to complain about the government .... now I can see the path to freedom. There doesn't have to be any grand plan to attain it. You just have to live your life free from it. We get there one person at a time. Stop paying taxes and feeding your oppressors. Read Tolstoys great book. I have links to it on my wiki page here on the underground.

[Russell Kanning]

Are you angry that I burn UN flags? I personally find it very freeing. You should try it sometime.

Evil men set up systems to oppress their neighbors. They want you to work within that system. I choose to strike at the root of their power and ignore the game that they control.

If you think the "state" is too oppressive, then stop serving it. You will be much more free instantly and then we can have more fun at parties, because you will not blame me for your failed bid at political office.

[Kat Kanning]

You will be much more free instantly and then we can have more fun at parties, because you will not blame me for your failed bid at political office.

I find it ironic that the person who started the flaming is complaining that "None of this flaming has made us one bit freer."

[Dreepa]

Max

Couple of points.

1.  FSP says move to NH and become an activist.  It does not say what kind.  Many in the FSP miss that point.

Saying that protests don't count is foolish.  The UN flag burn gets noticed in the press and on the web which draws more people to the FSP and NH.

In Fact.. it was after the first flag burn that I decided to get off my ass and make a difference.  I am not a protester type guy.  But notice that the 'protest people' made an impression on me, a non protest type person and I am here.  I've gone to every budget and selectman's meeting since I moved here... I am involved in the political process.  Why? because of actions like Russell and Kat.
I don't agree with them on many things... however I don't have to.  They are actually doing something as your title implies. 

It always pisses me off when people tell others to stop wasting your time protesting.  Would you rather that Russell go watch TV?  Because you are not going to get him in the State House.

As Marx said 'To each according to his abilities'  Do what you do best in the fight for freedom.

(Did I just quote Marx?)