After Action Review: Russell v. IRS

[KBCraig]

I love my brother Russell, and support him absolutely. It is insane that he is spending so much as a minute in handcuffs, much less in jail.

But, for others who might plan similar events, I would like to offer my thoughts.

First: the planning. Don't "think out loud" in public. This event started with the idea of overturning tables in the temple. Then, the "overturning" was downgraded to slow motion. Then it morphed into handing flyers and resignation letters to IRS employees, but the initial threat of violence was there. The DHS/ICE/FPS officers used the "conspiracy to attempt to exercise freedom of speech in a public place" ploy, but the reality is that they only got involved because of the "overturning tables" bit.

Second: effective persuasion. Like lildog, I object strongly to the Bush/Hitler flyer. If you wish to persuade people to your side, you must do so in a way that doesn't alienate them before they've heard your argument. I know that Russell is a Christian; I don't believe he'd seek to convert the unsaved by handing them tracts that call them servents of Satan, damning them to Hell unless they repent.

Words are important. Logically or not, people react to certain words and images. A very large portion of the American public --including government employees-- agree that Bush and government have gone too far. That's a far cry from calling Bush a modern Hitler.

That's the point at which listeners discount everything you have to say. Feel free to persuade them... but persuade, don't alienate.

Kevin

[Incrementalist]

Second: effective persuasion. Like lildog, I object strongly to the Bush/Hitler flyer. If you wish to persuade people to your side, you must do so in a way that doesn't alienate them before they've heard your argument. I know that Russell is a Christian; I don't believe he'd seek to convert the unsaved by handing them tracts that call them servents of Satan, damning them to Hell unless they repent.

Words are important. Logically or not, people react to certain words and images. A very large portion of the American public --including government employees-- agree that Bush and government have gone too far. That's a far cry from calling Bush a modern Hitler.

That's the point at which listeners discount everything you have to say. Feel free to persuade them... but persuade, don't alienate.

Hah, I've been barking up this tree since I started posting here.  Good luck making it NH activist policy.

[aries]

Speak softly and carry a big stick.

[Dave Ridley]

Ya , KB is right.   we need to learn from our experiences.   all of us will make mistakes as we do whatever we do. but as russell is always saying the difference between Gandhi and all the Congress Party hacks was that, whatever his imperfections, he went and DID peacefull stuff in defiance of the british.   We're lucky to have someone willing to DO, and can best react by *doing* something of our own either directly or indirectly supportive. 

I was glad to get advice and criticism after my first open carry incident, but much MORE glad for the things people DID to support me (mostly the folks at GONH).

[FrankChodorov]

as russell is always saying the difference between Gandhi and all the Congress Party hacks was that, whatever his imperfections, he went and DID peacefull stuff in defiance of the british.

yes but to defy the salt tax imposed by the British government Gandhi and his followers freely walked to the sea and used the sea water to evaporate and create salt.

it was recognized by all that the sea is common property and everyone has an absolute right to freely engage in their labor by transforming it as they wanted to and it would not harm anyone else as the sea is vast - he found the British's achilles heel of oppression...

MLK excercised their right of free speech and assembly to walk down public roads and sidewalks all individual common rights of ways (among other things like boycotts and exploiting public accomodation laws)...and used the media to show the inhumanity of the brutal attacks.

what exactly is the achilles heel that Russell's action identifies and how well is it being articulated?

people know that the money sent to the IRS is being used for oppression, torture, war, exploitation, etc.

[mvpel]

Russell v. IRS:



Why not let the air out of the tires instead?

[d_goddard]

Posted on the FSP forum:
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=12241.msg159221#msg159221

Turning over tables etc.  ... it is violent and probably breaks laws pertaining to property, certainly disturbing the peace, etc.  This doesn't fit the parameters the FSP gives participants on a couple of fronts - violence, federal.   :/

I might even use a big magnet (a weapon of mass destruction).
I am trying to break laws and certainly disturb the peace.
The FSP doesn't really set parameters for me. It's just the bus.
What does "federal" mean?

I'm sorry to the revisionists... the notion that Russell intended to be disruptive is entirely reasonable, given the above.

See the linked-to thread for numerous Free-Staters pointing out the potential for aggression, whether or not such was intended.

[Rocketman]

ah, hadn't read that...

[Minsk]

I'm sorry to the revisionists... the notion that Russell intended to be disruptive is entirely reasonable, given the above.

See the linked-to thread for numerous Free-Staters pointing out the potential for aggression, whether or not such was intended.

Actually, what I see prior to the message you quoted is Russell (and indy_farmboy) stating that the first visit will be purely handing out flyers, and that the message you quoted is explicitly the "later".

Even in the case where such overwhelming violence is threatened as gently overturning tables or carrying a magnet, there is necessarily an "impending" qualification before it becomes more than a thought crime. So an increased police presence would be reasonable. Arresting him for his perceived intent to do something at some later date would be... questionable.

Of course he was neither arrested for, nor charged with, anything to do with trashing the IRS office. So without making any accusations about revisionism, could we all quit whining for a while? (That's probably a little over the top, but I'm in an over-the-top mood tonight. Sorry)

<edit>No no, when I say over-the-top mood I mean that I would be over-the-top talking about what I had for lunch. It's a scary, scary thing. The only safe response is to drop a beer and run.</edit>

[d_goddard]

I should point out, the purpose of the thread seemed to be a "debrief", and I though that post was relevant.

Of course he was neither arrested for, nor charged with, anything to do with trashing the IRS office.

No doubt, the LEOs overreacted big time, in arresting him in the manner they did. They were going to arrest him sooner or later though...

So without making any accusations about revisionism, could we all quit whining for a while? (That's probably a little over the top, but I'm in an over-the-top mood tonight. Sorry)

You're right, that was over the top. Emotions too high on all sides... and we're not even sittin' in jail.
And you're right also about the no-whining rule. I tell my 2-year-old to stop whining often enough, I should take extra care to make sure I'm not doing it either!

Peace.

[FrankChodorov]

Arresting him for his perceived intent to do something at some later date would be... questionable.

they arrested him outside the IRS office because he admitted to the officers that he would cross their arbitrary line (between common & specific purpose areas) to tell the employees in the office to quit their jobs.

the official claim is that this would disrupt the business of the office and would not be permitted.

[Christopher King]

Yeah, that obstruction of official business argument is a problem.

In one of my client's cases (Jerry Doyle) he threatened not to leave the school board at the end of the meeting until they promised to reinstate a certain treasurer, and we won his trespassing case after a jury trial, as seen in American Lawyer #1 at http://kingcast.net -- but it's kind of apples and oranges because we proved in Jerry's case that other people were still inside the building after they argued that it was closed -- but in this case they are going to argue that Russell imminently threatened to commit an unlawful act.

I might argue that it was clearly rhetorical and that he never crossed the plane, to cop a line from John Madden.

In any event, it's a ridiculous case; totall unneccessary.

Good luck, Russell.

[FrankChodorov]

in this case they are going to argue that Russell imminently threatened to commit an unlawful act.

I might argue that it was clearly rhetorical and that he never crossed the plane.

In any event, it's a ridiculous case; totall unneccessary.

the unlawful act was attmpting to disrupt the business within the collectively owned property.

when asked by the police officers the second time he was arrested what his intent was in going into the office he told them that he was going to "ask the employees to quit".

they determined that he was rightfully allowed to go into general purpose areas (lobbies, halls, stairs) but they drew a line between general purpose areas and specific purpose areas at the bottom of the stairs leading up to the offices.

when he tried to pass by the officer after being told that he would be arrested they determined that he was going to disrupt the official business within the office.

[KBCraig]

Yeah, that obstruction of official business argument is a problem.

In one of my client's cases (Jerry Doyle) he threatened not to leave the school board at the end of the meeting until they promised to reinstate a certain treasurer, and we won his trespassing case after a jury trial, as seen in American Lawyer #1 at http://kingcast.net -- but it's kind of apples and oranges because we proved in Jerry's case that other people were still inside the building after they argued that it was closed -- but in this case they are going to argue that Russell imminently threatened to commit an unlawful act.

Same thing here: anyone who was not Russell --or who wasn't perceived by the police to be part of Russell's party-- could have entered the IRS offices that day.

Any "good taxpaying citizen" who happened to need forms, or who had other business there, could have walked right up those same stairs without question.

Just like your Jerry Doyle case, it was wide open, to anyone who wasn't the person being arrested.

Kevin

[cathleeninnh]

Exactly the same as the situation Saturday when we were prevented from walking down the public road beside the county jail. Anyone else could have walked down that road, but they knew who we were and thus were threatened with unlawful assembly.

Freedom apparently is something granted if "THEY" decide you are worthy.

Cathleen