Vegans - B12

[tracysaboe]

A better question would be "Are we herbavoir or omnivors". But I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Tracy might; he's the only one with spelling that bad!

??? ???

Tracy

[bailey228]

Don't you have better things to do than post all of your personal information in the internet? 

Not really. I nurse an infant for several hours every day and I hold her when she sleeps since she won't sleep alone, so I'm stuck on the couch most of the day.

[Lex]

What nutrients are you talking about?

All the details are here in Part 7: http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml

But here are a few:
B12 - only produced by organisms - thus you have to either hope your body is producing enough, that you eat enough organisms or eat feces
Taurine - found only in trace amounts in red algae otherwise available plentifuly in meat, our bodies can also produce it in small amounts
Protein - meat is an easier source of protien and we digest meat significantly better than vegetables

[Money Dollars]

Wow...if you are including protein, and just keep going back to "biology is destiny"... I'm not even going to bother.....You do know it is twenty ought six, right?

[Lex]

Joke:
"How many vegans does it take to screw in a lightbulb?"
"I don't know, but where do you get your protein?"
and cartoon:
http://blog.veggiedude.com/images/pix/protein.gif

SAD - standard american diet
SWD - standard western diet

Clinical studies based on the SAD/SWD diet

Narrow claims: Conventional veg*n vs. SAD/SWD. One does not have to look far to find raw/veg*n advocates citing clinical studies that show the negative health effects of the SAD/SWD diet. The more savvy/honest advocates are specific in their claims, and state something like, "Study X shows the (conventional) vegan diet promotes better health than does the SAD/SWD." Such precision in language is good; however, the fact that healthy omnivore/faunivore diets do in fact exist should also be mentioned, at least occasionally, for completeness and for honesty. (It is rare to find a raw or veg*n advocate who bothers to mention that healthy omnivore diets do exist.)

Fallacious claim: One type of veg*n diet vs. all omnivore/faunivore diets. The less savvy/honest raw/veg*n diet advocates point to clinical studies of veg*ns vs. SAD/SWD consumers, and then make the massive logical fallacy of saying that such evidence proves or indicates that the veg*n diet tested is better than all omnivore diets. It is a logical fallacy to assume that test results for one type of vegan diet versus one type of omnivore diet (the SAD/SWD, usually) indicate that the tested vegan diet (or, even worse, all vegan diets) are better than all omnivore diets.

The SAD/SWD is only one of a large variety of possible omnivore diets. For example, all of the diets in the China Project (discussed in the next section) are omnivore diets, and are generally different from the SAD/SWD diet. Obviously, omnivore diets vary considerably--just as vegan diets do.

Unconscious double standard. One criticism veg*n advocates make concerning some of the clinical studies that show negative health effects on veg*n diets is that such studies may use non-representative veg*n diets, like macrobiotics, as their sampling base. Along the same lines, note that the "conventional" vegan diet (one that makes use of grains, legumes, etc., usually cooked) is radically different from the 100% raw fruitarian diet. Further, 100% raw fruitarian diets have a dismal record of failure in the long run. The usual long-run result of 100% raw fruitarian diets (per anecdotal evidence) is ill health. Assume that a long-term clinical study of fruitarians existed, and it showed the negative health results so common in anecdotal reports. Would it be fair to extrapolate from the fruitarian diet and condemn all vegan diets? Not really--that would be a logical fallacy. In a similar manner, raw and/or conventional veg*n diet advocates who use clinical studies based on the SAD/SWD diet to condemn all omnivore/faunivore diets are engaging in a logical fallacy.

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-8c.shtml#misinterp%20research

[Lex]

Wow...if you are including protein, and just keep going back to "biology is destiny"... I'm not even going to bother.....You do know it is twenty ought six, right?

I only said that we process the protein in meat easier than in vegetables. I guess it's easier to just pretend like you didn't understand what I said and get upset about it.

"biology is destiny"?

I don't understand why you are getting so defensive and irrational. The whole purpose of this thread from my perspective was to learn more about vegetarianism and whether it is right for me. You have stated that you are vegetarian because of religious reasons and that's great, I think it shows that you are a principled person. But if you chose vegetarianism for religious reasons why are you attacking my questioning of it on a scientific and biological level? In fact, I am NOT a scientist so everything I am saying is based on stuff I have read. I have no way to verify if what I'm reading is true or not so I have to use a combination of gut feeling and what seems to make sense. The beyondveg.com website has so far seemed to be relatively unbiased and making lots of sense, afterall the author has been a vegetarian/raw foodist for 30 years and is STILL a vegetarian.

I have read the article you provided but it was mostly emotionally charged which is not what I'm looking for. I want to first understand the risks invovled with either diet and what I would need to do to compensate for those risks. Once I'm knowledgeable about that I can make a better decision on whether I want to be a vegetarian.

Unfortunately, as the guy on beyondveg.com points out several times that vegans are so obsessed with their diet that any questioning or doubt gets them into a defensive mood.

[Money Dollars]

I only said that we process the protein in meat easier than in vegetables.

in response to...

But you keep putting out crap about "nutrients that we get from meat that we cannot easily get through other methods".."and are likely to get sick if we do not".

What nutrients are you talking about?

so your answer was that we cannot get protien easily from non-animal sources...and that is bullshit.

I guess it's easier to just pretend like you didn't understand what I said and get upset about it.

I'm not upset, but you are just wasting my time...I don't care if you eat meat. I am not trying to convince you to change your diet. Eat shit if you want to. I don't care.

"biology is destiny"?

yes, you keep saying shit like....

So it just makes sense to eat meat if our bodies are suited for the purpose and we greatly benefit from doing so

The whole purpose of this thread from my perspective was to learn more about vegetarianism and whether it is right for me.

Vegetarianism is not eating animal products, and it's not for you. That was easy.

But if you chose vegetarianism for religious reasons why are you attacking my questioning of it on a scientific and biological level?

Because you keep putting out bullshit like

"Are we vegetarians or omnivors?"

and

"B12 - only produced by organisms - thus you have to either hope your body is producing enough, that you eat enough organisms or eat feces"

I guess you don't think supplements are an option 

[Lex]

I guess it's easier to just pretend like you didn't understand what I said and get upset about it.

I'm not upset, but you are just wasting my time...I don't care if you eat meat. I am not trying to convince you to change your diet. Eat shit if you want to. I don't care.

I didn't make you read this thread 

[Money Dollars]

no, but you ask questions...then don't seem to care what the answer is.

"I like how meat tastes"...."it's what I've always eaten" is a good enough answer...I'm not sure why you feel the need to justify your meat eating.....

[Kat Kanning]

:canoworms:

[tracysaboe]

I'm not a fan of milk. Milk is downright unhealthy for a good half of the American population. I knew someone who was really into the "eat for your blood-type" thing, and he said that according to that doctors research anyway, type B and AB, and type O blood types really shouldn't drink milk. That's a good 3/4 of the population or better.

I think we'd all have very different diets if it wasin't for the government enforced Milk, Beef, Pork, and other cartels in this country. It discusts me all those milk ads that you see plastered over the walls in schools. And then in the cafiterias they only serve 2% or skim. ?????? These are growing children and young men and women. Fat is healthy for them. (Perhaps not neccessarily milk-fat -- but if you'ree going to drink milk, you might as well get some fat to help fill you up.)

End rant.

Tracy

[Lex]

I'm not a fan of milk. Milk is downright unhealthy for a good half of the American population. I knew someone who was really into the "eat for your blood-type" thing, and he said that according to that doctors research anyway, type B and AB, and type O blood types really shouldn't drink milk. That's a good 3/4 of the population or better.

I think we'd all have very different diets if it wasin't for the government enforced Milk, Beef, Pork, and other cartels in this country. It discusts me all those milk ads that you see plastered over the walls in schools. And then in the cafiterias they only serve 2% or skim. ?????? These are growing children and young men and women. Fat is healthy for them. (Perhaps not neccessarily milk-fat -- but if you'ree going to drink milk, you might as well get some fat to help fill you up.)

End rant.

Please calrify which milk are you talking about? There is raw, pasteurized, ultra-pasteurized, homogenized, evaporated, 2% and skimmed milk obtained from humans, cows, goats, sheep, horses, donkeys, camels, yaks, water buffalo, reindeer the different combinations of which are all consumed by humans and all contain different nutrients, different proportions of the same nutrients and different benefits and negatives.

[Dreepa]

Fat is healthy for them. (Perhaps not neccessarily milk-fat -- but if you'ree going to drink milk, you might as well get some fat to help fill you up.)

End rant.

Most Americans don't need anymore fat.  They are fat enough.

[Money Dollars]

Well I do agree with the nourishing traditions type diet,

I don't know what that is.

I agree with you partly though, I don't think pasteurized/homoginized dairy that the majority consumes is healthy at all.

It's all nasty, unless you are a baby cow.

I originally ignored this dentist weston a price reference, but then did look at the link..
:canoworms:

I looked at the link, but didn't want to open the can, so I didn't say anything....

It's pretty funny that they call the diet type "nourishing traditions".... You can tell it must be good, just by the name....kinda like the patriot act....it has to be good with that name!

[Money Dollars]

The Weston A. Price Foundation would like the gov. to...

The Weston A. Price Foundation is an active lobby in Washington, DC on issues such as government food triangle definition and composition of school lunch programs and supports a ban on soy infant formula.