Ticketed for not having paid gov't (vehicle registration)

[Kat Kanning]

Trail of Tears:  Cherokee Indians forced from their land to move to Oklahoma.  Many died along the way.  They carried their dead with them.

[John Edward Mercier]

So if one of you 'owned' the road... and I used it without submitting payment... that wouldn't be theft?

The problem is you see the word 'government'.
If the road was offered to a private entity with the understanding they would maintain it... no problem.
If the private entity required payment for its use... no problem.
But the second a collective (roads are accepted by town vote), then it becomes a problem.

I finally get it. Government should give us anything we want for free... and make someone else pay... then its not evil.

No, obviously you don't get it.

There is no such thing as a collective, except as an abstract concept.  Individuals have rights.  "Collectives" do not.  When "collectives" steal from individuals through force-backed extortion, it really is just individuals forcibly imposing their will on their fellow individuals, in the name of an abstract concept that can by "it's" very "nature" have no right to do so.  That constitutes a violation of individual/property rights.

Any individual or collection of individuals that obtains the land and other resources to build and maintain roads by honorable (100% voluntary) means, has/have the right to make rules regarding the use of such road, as well as charge for its use.

Nope, government should not give us anything for free.  Force-backed government should not even exist in the first place.  Unfortunately, it does exist -- and the only way an individual can exercise his sovereignty in our current upside down "civilization" is to engage in civil disobedience.
Roads in our current anti-civilization are not the private property of any one individual.  The funds used to build them were obtained by coercion from large numbers of individuals, and there is simply no way to determine who all has been extorted, and make restitution.  In order to get from here to a civilization where individual rights are genuinely respected as a matter of course, there has to be a transition from "State" to private ownership, regardless of who was unfortunately wronged under the old (current) system.

The transition has to start somewhere.  I for one, refuse to perpetuate the current criminal collectivist system through force-backed taxes, and I likewise refuse to follow the criminal orders of others who wish to enforce the "will" of "the collective" on me.  When the man with a badge has actual ownership rights (hence honorably obtained), I will gladly submit to his rules and pay his fees, or else keep off his property.

The roads were freely volunteered to them from the owners. They were not annexed under any eminent domain, and they're charging the drivers for their use. The only difference between the 'government' collective and a collective of individuals is the government does not get a return on investment.

[John Edward Mercier]

There are no property rights outside the government.
Why do you think the Native Americans had such a problem with the concept?

The road was freely given to the collective (whether that be a government or group of people in a commune does not matter). The collective has imposed a charge for usage. You freely have chosen to use... but do not pay the charge. What would you call that?

How about you drive up and down the Mt. Washington Auto road without paying the $20 charge...
Its a private road... what would you call this?

Uhmm, refresh my history.  why is the trail of tears called the trail of tears? 
Pulease, this gov't has no concept of private property.  Neither did the white settlers pushing for more Indian land to be 'liberated', then turned into free homesteads.[/b]  I don't believe in the myth of the noble Indian, but lets not make new myths about the noble gov't. 
I have been robbed twice in my life.  The gov't steals from me in most of my transactions, (sales tax, in ohio), the price of rent includes the gov't rent on land, (property tax), and the gov't steals from me yearly for income and social security tax.  The guy who stuck a pistol in my face didn't steal from me yearly. 
I didn't ask for the roads.  I don't believe I should pay for them.  I am not the one who voted to zone the city where I live.  I would love to live closer to work, but I cannot afford to live in the limited housing near downtown that was grandfathered in before zoning.  Gov't makes it necessary to drive. 

Collective property of the tribe... not individual.

[David]

Collective property of the gov't...not individual.  Same difference, different word. 
The Natives socialized their food sources, (the hunting and gathering areas) but most definitely defended them as their property. 

[John Edward Mercier]

My disagreement Dave is your arguing that no one should pay for maintenance of the roads. This is exceptable to me. Largely the existance of the land beneath the road costs the municipality/State nothing. But I'm not sure this is what you had in mind, as your thread in 'alternatives' suggested looking for another funding method.

[David]

Mercier Quote"My disagreement Dave is your arguing that no one should pay for maintenance of the roads."
That is not true.  I argue against the theft, and the assumption that I should be forced to pay for things I don't request.  The foundation of gov't is theft and extortion.  I highly resent that. 
On the other thread where I wrote what I would do if I had a roadway.  But I started the thread with the emphasis on what I would do, not on what I expect others would do.  I expect to make a little money in some form or fashion indirectly, but not from the road itself.  I hoped to lead by example, with the hope to preserve freedom of travel and still uphold the rights of property owners.  But again, these are not mandates on others, these are things I would do. 
The gov't does not lead by example.  They don't uphold property rights.  Attempts by most to get the courts to uphold them are difficult at best, and uncertain under most conditions.  (be prepared to wait, and hope your opponent doesn't have lawyers on retainer)  They tax, then provide a product or service as an excuse to tax more. 
It is a system that has worked, not necessarily well, but it does work.  But the cost to your right to travel, and your rights to property is enourmous.  In ohio there were 50 different ways to lose your permission to drive that had nothing to do with driving.  Not to mention the shakedowns for money in regards to responsible drinking and driving.  (yes, it does happen, almost all who go to bars drive home.  They number in the millions)  Most are stopped, much like I was, for a single taillight that is out.  They are not stopped for reckless driving, or for swerving, but for a taillight, or a sobriety checkpoint. 

[John Edward Mercier]

I don't understand the paying for things you don't request, and registration fees. By the act of driving on the road, haven't you requested the service? And since registration is only required for driving on the road aren't you paying for the service your using?
Also, where does the 'right to travel' come from? I have no reference to such except for the Mayflower Compact that instilled the right to travel by foot.

[David]

I don't understand the paying for things you don't request, and registration fees. By the act of driving on the road, haven't you requested the service? And since registration is only required for driving on the road aren't you paying for the service your using?
Also, where does the 'right to travel' come from? I have no reference to such except for the Mayflower Compact that instilled the right to travel by foot.

A parable, or analogy. 
If I bought a timeshare vacation house, and told you that you can live in it too, but then gave you a bill for it, all without asking if you wanted it, and then forced you at gunpoint to pay your 'fair share' of the house bill, would you agree? 
Then one day while you were in the house, I came by for maintenance of the timeshare, and heard you swearing, a victimless 'crime'.  And I ticketed you and ordered you to appear before my judge for your 'fair' trial.  After your 'fair' trial, you of course were convicted, but you now have to pay more money, and you can no longer live in the timeshare house, only visit during the day, but not at night.  Still agree? 
Of course you being a man who tries to earn his living, now is not able to live in the timeshare, so you have to live in your real house much farther away from your work.  Possible, but much harder. 

[John Edward Mercier]

So you were given an 'invitation' to drive on the roads? Where do I get one? Mine must have gotten lost in the mail.

[Caleb]

so what's the lowdown on this situation, Dave? Are they leaving you alone?

Caleb

[Lloyd Danforth]

So you were given an 'invitation' to drive on the roads? Where do I get one? Mine must have gotten lost in the mail.

It was with that 'contract' you signed when you were born.

[John Edward Mercier]

A 'social contract' is not signatory. Its a basis for agreement... and when people disagree its amended.

The problem in this case is how to amend it. Its logical to say if Dave does not have to pay for road maintenance, then I should not have to pay for road maintenance... and by that virtue no one should have to pay for road maintenance. Since no one is paying anyone to maintain the roads... the most likely outcome is the roads will go unmaintained.

Obviously there might be other options... which is what I'm trying to get at.

[David]

Roads unmaintained by the gov't?  Yup, I guess an agency thats entire foundation is force, and threats of force, will have to find a way to raise money the way you and I have to.  the modern mafia should never have gotten in the business of things it had no business doing in the first place. 

so what's the lowdown on this situation, Dave? Are they leaving you alone?

Caleb

So far yes.  I sent in the ticket with a not guilty plea at the last possible date.  They should have gotten the ticket by now, but I haven't heard back yet. 
Good to hear from you.   

[Russell Kanning]

now we know Caleb is not in jail ..... ya never know in a police state

[John Edward Mercier]

Roads unmaintained by the gov't?  Yup, I guess an agency thats entire foundation is force, and threats of force, will have to find a way to raise money the way you and I have to.  the modern mafia should never have gotten in the business of things it had no business doing in the first place. 

so what's the lowdown on this situation, Dave? Are they leaving you alone?

Caleb

So far yes.  I sent in the ticket with a not guilty plea at the last possible date.  They should have gotten the ticket by now, but I haven't heard back yet. 
Good to hear from you.   

Several private roads exist in this area... one may not drive on them without permission and in some cases payment. They are protected by gun... aka force and the threat there of.