I was banned from Murphy's Taproom

[Rearden]

Kevin, with all due respect, customers pay the wages of the employee in every single business.  Most industries simply build it into the cost of their products.

The restaurant business does not (except for back-of-the-house-staff).  You still pay the employee, only it's a lot more direct.  You skip the accounting, the payroll department, AND it usually isn't as bad with the IRS, either.  So the employee gets to keep more of his money, it's less hassle for me, it's lower prices for the customer, and it DOES help with service.  And if you don't think it does, try giving the bartender $5 for getting you a beer sometime and see how many times he checks in on you.  He'll jump over other customers to make sure you're doing okay.

Mike has the socialist argument - "Just pay your employees more." But that will inevitably cause much higher prices across the board, and I'll be out of business.  

[ColdSoul]

try giving the bartender $5 for getting you a beer sometime and see how many times he checks in on you.  He'll jump over other customers to make sure you're doing okay.

I can say this is 100% true even with less than 5 bucks. I was getting shots on my 21st BD and I tipped the bartender 2-3 bucks (66% to 100%) everytime I got a shot, and I got a shot as soon as I asked for one. In fact I didn't even have to ask I just tapped the bar and even if he was on the otherside of the bar I would have a shot in 5-10 seconds. The bar wasn't super packed, but packed enough I shouldn't have been getting that good of service. Let me also note I was in a hurry because I only had 1 hour to drink due to getting off work late so I needed the fast service and was willing to pay for it.

[SpeedPhreak]

I have not read this entire thread - my apologies.

I was a bartender for several years - it was a GREAT time & I made GREAT money.

Some people tipped VERY well - others didn't tip at all... most tipped the industry standard (my area anyway)of $1 per 1 or 2 drinks (ie $1 for 1 or 2 drinks $2 for 3 or 4).

Guess who got served, who got extra attention, & who didn't get served at all.  That is free market to the core.  Granted I was in a place that had a HUGE customer base & I had the luxury of picking & choosing my customers... there were up to 4 other bars open at any given time in the same club so the non-tipping customer could go there - the bar rarely if ever missed out on a sale.  My hourly was $2.17 yet I rarely made less than $25/hr.

Occasionally the customer asked why they have been standing there with out service & I told them (the $5 is for the drink - the tip is for my service, skill, & expertise) - 90+% of people began to tip at that point.

I did almost get fired for that 1 night - it was a slow weeknight (therfore no other bars open) & I refused service to a customer.  He was a new customer & I gave him a 2 for 1 on his 1st 2 rounds... that by the way came out of my pocket.  No tip for the 3 round.  4th came around & I told him he I wasn't serving him anymore & why.  The floor manager (not my boss) told me to serve him - I said no - make it yourself - he said he would fire me - I told him no you wont - he got my manager involved & I told her the same thing.  After about 30 min she finally made the drink.

[K. Darien Freeheart]

You skip the accounting, the payroll department, AND it usually isn't as bad with the IRS, either.

That's actually one of the biggest reason I SUPPORT the tipping process. It lets people decided what they're going to do with their money rather than putting that decision in the hands of business owners who are often too scared to let their employees make that decision themselves. I'd be a hell of a lot better off if my employer gave me that choice.

Kevin, with all due respect, customers pay the wages of the employee in every single business.

I understand the entire supply chain arguement, but in the end it is YOU who are contracting for the waitstaff services and you who has the burden to pay them. If you dispute your obligation, explain to me who pays the waitstaff when no customers come in. If you've got experience outside of this venture, I'm sure you're watching your hourly labor costs. If you had a lull and those staff were on their butts, would they go unpaid (since there are no customers), or would that burden fall to you?

I'm behind you on this on so many levels. I agree that not tipping is RUDE and that tipping is a good thing to do. If, however, you're running in the red when your customers aren't tipping, then that's a problem with your business model. If you need your customers to pay more in order to turn a profit, charge more. It's a simple thing really.

If you posed it as a loss leader that someone was taking advantage of, cool. I get it. But what you're essentially arguing is that he (as your customer) has the burden to pay the wage of that waitstaff and that failure to do so is somehow a bad thing. He, and none of your customers, has that burden. You'd alienate less of them (right or wrong in your eyes, you ARE doing that) by accepting rather then pushing off that burden.

If the server is doing a bad job, it may be because they're having a tough night, or are brand-new.  I do not believe they should walk home with empty pockets as a result.

I kinda of disagree here, with one caveat. You should always give people a chance to correct something. A lot of people are too cowed to say "Hey, this was a problem" and they'll hold that resentment in and take it out of the tip. I think that's wrong. If you give a chance to correct the problem and then it's not changed, then it's fair game to take it from the tip. I understand that people are human and have "bad days" but that wouldn't be an excuse for anyone else not to do their job, so I don't think it's fair for waitstaff to act pissy because they didn't sleep well.

[mackler]

Tipping can be a great way to create incentive for staff to provide good service. But so can verbal thanks, or bonuses from Keith for numerous customer compliments, or a larger wage, or extra benefits if Keith witnesses excellent service, or a floor manager that doesn't serve people but only watches and helps the servers provide excellent service, or providing a less chaotic and difficult to serve environment than Murphy's has, etc.

...or not getting fired....

[mackler]

Ever noticed a particularly attractive waitress? You don't have a chance with her.  She might've thought you were attractive when she first saw you, but when you leave her nothing for her efforts - she'll think you're a jerk.

And as we all know, women are never attracted to jerks.  Lol!

[dalebert]

I gotta say this discussion has gotten quite silly.

[mackler]

6) BUT the contract didn't include that the tip was mandatory

BUT the contract does include the tip, at least according to the interaction between Keith and Mike described in the first post of this thread, and also another post from Russell.

BUT I think this is bad on Keith for hiding the fact (no notice on the wall or anything) that customers must tip, be it 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% ect. Because unless he does so he is hiding the true cost outside of the "valid" contract unless it is posted somewhere in the Bar at the entrance.

How is he hiding it?  He told Mike right to his face, and according to Russell had told more other people at some other time in the past!

I think Keith and the waiter/ess wouldn't want a sign because it might lower the amount of business, and possibly if it says 10% is mandatory, nobody might tip over 10% but that doesn't make it right to hide the fact that tips are mandatory.

Keith just lowered his amount of business by telling Mike not to shop there without tipping.  Obviously he's not worried about losing business by announcing his mandatory tipping rule.

Keith should either inform the customers that tipping is mandatory beforehand, or not kick people out for not tipping on a individual basis.
...it shouldn't be made mandatory unless the customer is informed.

Well anyone who's read this thread has now been informed!

[SpeedPhreak]

Posted already?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip

"by definition a tip is never legally required"

[Puke]

I for one find it rather fucked up that Keith banned someone for not giving extra money over the actual price.
Tipping is a personal choice. What if the person can't tip b/c they are poor? Or they just don't want to?

If you are expected to pay 20% over the stated price of a meal and call it a "tip", or you will be banned from the premises, then post it on the door.

It's his choice to keep out paying customers if he wants.
Now I know where not to eat in Manchester.

[mackler]

Now that I've made it to the end of this thread, and nobody has yet asked this...

(And I wasn't able to find your blog so I'm not 100% clear on your reasons for not tipping...)

but here is my question for you:

Do you pay the 8% meal tax when you eat out?  It's not included in the prices on (most) menus.

If so, why do you pay one commonly accepted surcharge and not the other?

If not, then props to you for being consistent.

[Fluff and Stuff]

I for one find it rather fucked up that Keith banned someone for not giving extra money over the actual price.
Tipping is a personal choice. What if the person can't tip b/c they are poor?

It is a personal choice but if I was poor, there is no way I'd be ordering stuff in a place like Murphy's Taproom. Fast food is less than 1/3 the price and discourages tips, and even the big chain places like Applebee's and Chili's are notably less.  Going to the grocery store is even less expensive.

[J’raxis 270145]

I posted my own questions over on NH Tea Party, too.

[Jared]

i think you're a super cool guy, but i probably would have done the same. ill have to side with keith on this one.

would you really kick out customers if they didn't tip on credit card bills?
would you add tips to patrons bills after they leave?

i would indeed kick them out for not tipping. i would not add tips to patron's bills after they leave.

[Puke]

It is a personal choice but if I was poor, there is no way I'd be ordering stuff in a place like Murphy's Taproom. Fast food is less than 1/3 the price and discourages tips, and even the big chain places like Applebee's and Chili's are notably less.  Going to the grocery store is even less expensive.

Maybe if you where poor and wanted to treat yourself?
What about chintzy?
Anyway, perhaps a better analogy is out there somewhere. I'l look for it after lunch.